May 032010
 

In round 3, Burke comes out swinging and swinging. But how much does he connect? In my judgment, somewhat. Here’s an overview of his case, with some critical comments, and at the end I score the round.

First, Burke argues that Jesus’ messianic roles as atoning sin-offering, priest, redeemer, and Davidic king, do not require him to be divine, and further, that the first and last of these require that he is not God. I take it Burke’s point is that they require Jesus to be a human, and that no human is divine. Flag: In this context, the point is question-begging. Bowman no doubt affirms Chalcedon, according to which Jesus has both a divine and a human nature.

Next, Burke has a nice discussion of the Jewish habit, well attested in the NT and in other ancient writings, of talking about what God has predestined as already existing in heaven. This affects what one considers the natural reading of passages like John 17:5 (NIV) “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” Burke nicely sketches the line of thought behind this habit – what is predestined is as good as done, so what is future is moved back, as it were, to the past or present – to a time which is “too late” to avoid. He gives a vivid example from Paul of talking about a future event as present: “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus…” (Eph 2:6, NIV)

What is the significance of this? If Burke is right – and this is an interpretive point I’ve seen a number of commenters make, especially outside of polemical contexts – then Bowman can’t simply point to talk of Jesus’ pre-existence, but must also argue that the phenomenon at hand is not in the passage in question. I think Bowman’s best bet would be to concede many examples of this, and retreat to the view that this doesn’t explain all of the pre-existence implying talk in the NT, e.g. Jesus’ statements that he’s come down from heaven, etc.

In the section after this, Burke argues:

Rob has yet to address the Bible’s exclusive emphasis on Jesus’ humanity. He will say he accepts the humanity of Jesus in addition to his alleged deity, but Scripture says nothing of this position.

Flag: begging the question – it is the very matter at issue, whether or not the Bible asserts the divinity of Jesus. Bowman must concede the Bible’s (contra docetism) strong emphasis on the humanity of Jesus, but he need not concede any such “exclusive” emphasis.

And yet, it is striking that the preaching about Jesus in Acts is how it is – it is not what one would expect from a Christian who holds that a crucial point of faith is the “full divinity” of Jesus:

Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead… God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. …Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2: 22-36, NIV, emphases added)

Bowman’s position here differs from the Catholic one, and it seems to me that they have a principled reply to this, whereas Bowman does not. In his view, the Bible rather obviously implies, or can only be understood as teaching, the divinity of Jesus. Consequently, the apostles all did believe this. It would be surprising, then, to see them preach as above. In contrast, the Catholic holds that Mother Church, as much as the apostles, is an instrument of divine revelation, and the divinity of Jesus simply hadn’t been clearly revealed at this point. So perhaps the apostles held to a “primitive” (adoptionist?) christology, whereas later generations of inspired thinkers – bishops, mostly – came to full belief in the divinity of Jesus. I note in passing that Burke doesn’t address this sort of response. (Fair enough – his debate partner isn’t offering it.)

Next, Burke asks: “Why is Jesus never accused of claiming to be God throughout his trial?” Well, it is murky precisely how his trial went, and precisely what the charges were. There’s a suggestion of “blasphemy” but it is unclear to me what the contemporary Jewish concept of that was. Some insist that it must be a response to claims to divinity, while others hold it to be much broader, and could be raised at anyone as it were treading on God’s territory. Bowman assumes the first view, Burke the second. Myself, I see no easy way forward; what do scholars of NT era Judaism say about this?

Burke is right that apparently, Jesus several times denied some sort of equality with God. Trinitarians acknowledge this. Burke says:

The standard response claims he was “denying equality of rank, not equality of nature.” But Jesus had not been accused of claiming equality with nature. Ontology is not at issue here. The Jews had been outraged by Jesus’ apparent usurpation of God’s divine authority and privileges. His defence makes no sense in any other context. (original emphasis)

Flag: begging the question. We need a reason for thinking that ontology is not an issue here, not a mere assertion. I think this connects with the “blasphemy” issue. If it can be shown that Jews of the period, in particular, the Pharisees, had a habit of throwing a “blasphemy” charge at people who merely claimed divine anointing, inspiration, empowerment, etc., then it may be more plausible to read things as Burke does. (Given the Jewish idea of God, would they have likely entertained that this Jewish man before them was him?) But if a “blasphemer” was normally someone claiming to be God, or to have a divine nature, etc. then the point goes to Bowman.

Burke insists that on his view, Jesus was “literally” the Son of God, but not on Bowman’s traditional (small “c”) catholic christology. Why? If I understand him – Burke doesn’t clearly say why – it is because fathering is being part of the cause for a thing’s coming into existence. So a human mom and dad jointly cause junior to exist. And if mom is a Clampitt, and dad is a Mullet, then junior is a descendant of both the Clampitts and the Mullets. Now Jesus is according to the Bible a descendant of David and of God. And so both Mary and God must be causes of Jesus’ coming into existence.

This is an interesting take on the issue – a development of the point in Luke that Jesus will be called “Son of God” because of the miracle wrought by God in Mary’s body.

The traditional catholic view is that Mary supplied the human nature – rational soul and body – which was united to the divine nature. Given this, I’m not sure why Burke demands that Bowman say what on his view it means to say that Jesus is the “Son of David” and “Son of God”.

What does it take to be the “literal father” of someone? It doesn’t strictly require intercourse, as a sperm donor may be a baby’s father. I take it, one must be the source or cause of the sperm which fertilized the egg. So I guess Burke is presupposing an account of just what happened in Mary – she supplied the egg, the spirit of God supplied the sperm. At first I thought that what Burke really wanted to say was that his view better makes sense of why the metaphor of Fatherhood and Sonship is apt when it comes to God and Jesus. But on reflection, no, I guess he is insisting on literal fatherhood of Jesus by God.

Burke may be presupposing that nothing is human unless it exists in some sense because of Adam. That is – something is a genuine human only if its causes can be traced back through Adam. This is somewhat plausible, but is by no means obvious. Take a subordinationist christology where the pre-existing logos takes the place of the human soul in Jesus. Is it obvious that such a being (ancient soul embodied in normal human body) wouldn’t be a human? I don’t think so – but this may be because I don’t think it is obvious whether dualism or physicalism is true. Does Burke, like some of the older Socinians and some present day biblical unitarians, hold that the Bible teaches physicalism about human beings? If not, what is the origin of the soul? If it is generated, as in Bill Hasker’s “emergent dualism” by the body, that’d fit well with his approach. But why think a human must have a soul generated in that way?

This is also relevant to the issue of Jesus dying. Suppose dualism is true. If so, perhaps when I die, my soul continues to exist while my body ceases to live. Burke holds that on the traditional account Jesus couldn’t die. But why not – the divine nature would still exist, but the human nature – or just the body part of it – ceases to function. What’s the problem? Is he presupposing the controversial premise that dying is ceasing to exist?

The trinitarian can agree with Burke’s account of the virginal and miraculous conception of Jesus. But not with the claim about existence and explanation above. The trinitarian view is that the Son would have existence whether or not there had ever been any humans.

The traditional view is that all it takes to be human is to have a human nature (which amounts to having a body and a rational soul). And Jesus has got one. Burke has a philosophical disagreement with this, not merely a biblical one.

On atonement, Burke agrees with the catholic view that to be a proper sacrifice Jesus had to be human. But he doesn’t agree that the sacrifice victim must also be divine.

A couple of traditional reasons for this latter claim are (1) Jesus had to be divine so he could divinize humanity, and (2) Jesus had to be divine because humans’ sins made an infinite stockpile of guilt, which could only be “paid for” by an infinitely valuable sacrifice, which can only a divine one.

It isn’t clear to me what either Burke or Bowman would say to these.

Burke briefly argues that Bowman’s account is contradictory: Jesus could and couldn’t be tempted. Jesus is seen, and is God, but God is never seen. Jesus dies and is also eternal. (As I remarked above, this last one isn’t obviously inconsistent – the point needs arguing.)

Finally, a methodological point from my last post. Burke falls into the same trap as Bomman – of thinking that we can proof-text our way through this dispute. We cannot. Both catholic and humanitarian christologies explain what the scriptures say about Jesus. The question is: which best explains the evidence. Burke and Bowman both realize this, which is why they are at pains to show that their interpretations are non-arbitrary. But equally, both attempt to deduce their position from the texts. In truth, the texts don’t obviously support either view over the other. But this is not to say that neither theory is better than the other. One theory may be a much better explanation than the other; while it has not been shown which it is, in my view Bowman should be worried that his theory seems to be sporting a fatal wound (inconsistency).

In my last post I said that Bowman was focused on explaining the following:

  • Jesus is called “Lord” (Gr. kurios) in the NT, and kurios is the Greek translation (in the widely used ancient Septuagint translation) for YHWH in Hebrew.
  • Statements and predictions about about YHWH / God in the OT are repeatedly applied to Jesus in the NT.
  • The NT implies that prayer to Jesus is a good thing.
  • Paul and the author of Hebrews say that Jesus created “all things”.
  • Paul says that Jesus is “equal to” God.
  • Paul says that all will confess that Jesus is the kurios.
  • Jesus has been “exalted to the same level as” God.
  • The Son is described as doing a lot of things God is elsewhere described as doing.
  • The NT implies that the Son is properly worshiped.

I think I know what Burke would say to a lot of these – a lot of the answers will have to do with the idea that Jesus is an agent who works on behalf of God. But I think the fourth issue and Philippians 2 are pressing, in part because Bowman has pressed them.

This round is not easy to call, but I’m calling it a draw. Bowman has addressed a broad range of phenomena, and yet has not rebutted the very serious charge that his theory is multiply self-contradictory. Burke has rebutted some of the important pre-existence proof texts, and has properly pointed out the focus of the NT on the humanity of Jesus, and has raised the important issue of atonement. He shows that those holding a humanitarian christology can affirm most of what all sides agree the Bible says about the messiah. But he’s begged the question on some core issues, and seems to rely on some controversial philosophical theses about what is essential to human beings and about death, which may or may not be defensible – and which may arguably be beyond the scope of this debate – they meant, I think, to keep it to the Bible.

Score:
Bowman: 0
Burke: 1
draw: 2

  109 Responses to “SCORING THE BURKE – BOWMAN DEBATE – Burke 3 (DALE)”

  1. cheryl,

    So I take it you have proof that every one of those statments by Ignatius, (and the others that I haven’t quoted) were never made by him at all? Every single one? That is a lot of forgery!

    What I am doing is asking you if you have proof that every one of those statements made by Ignatius is genuine. I take it you haven’t checked yet?

    I haven’t said anything about the other quotes, except for the quote from Polycarp. Have you read the Old Roman Symbol and the Didache yet?

  2. No Fortigurn, I can’t prove that every single one of them are genuine. But I bet you can’t prove that every single one of them is a forgery either.

    And I haven’t seen all of these commentators that agree that they are all forgeries either. And how many commentators are they that agree to this? Does every single commentator out there agree?

    I guess at this point I am simply not convinced at all that no church father believed Jesus is God. You have to do a lot more then what you have so far to prove it.

    And frankly, I am at the point where I am calling this whole conversation quits. Don’t have the time or energy any more for trying to discuss an issue with folks that are coming from such a totally different mind set that absolutely nothing anyone says seems to make any impression in the slightest. I feel like we come from two different planets or something!

  3. cheryl,

    No Fortigurn, I can’t prove that every single one of them are genuine.

    This is a good place to start if you want to assert them as evidence to prove your case.

    But I bet you can’t prove that every single one of them is a forgery either.

    I don’t need to. I only have to refer you to the commentaries which address them.

    And I haven’t seen all of these commentators that agree that they are all forgeries either.

    Yes, it’s clear you haven’t. I suggest you read more about the Ignatian epistles from the relevant scholarly literature.

    And how many commentators are they that agree to this? Does every single commentator out there agree?

    There’s a broad scholarly consensus on the forgeries and interpolations in the Ignatian corpus. A consensus does not mean unanimity, but it is equivalent in authority.

    There are two main collections of the letters of Ignatius (leaving aside the disputed ‘Syrian recension’). One is called the ‘short recension’, the other is the ‘long recension’. The ‘long recension’ is recognized as full of forgeries and interpolations. This quote is from Kirslopp-Lake’s introduction to his translation of Ignatius:

    It was early seen that the long recension contained several letters which were clearly not genuine, and that those which had the most claim to acceptance, as having been mentioned by Eusebius, were greatly corrupted by obvious interpolations.

    This is from a standard modern commentary, the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary:

    By the same token, (b) the so-called “long recension” is usually regarded as a 4th-century (perhaps Neo-Arrian) revision (Hagerdorn 1973: xxxvii-lii) consisting of interpolations into the original letters and the addition of 6 spurious letters.

    Your quotes are from the ‘long recension’.

    I guess at this point I am simply not convinced at all that no church father believed Jesus is God. You have to do a lot more then what you have so far to prove it.

    I am not claiming that no church father believed Jesus is God.

    And frankly, I am at the point where I am calling this whole conversation quits. Don’t have the time or energy any more for trying to discuss an issue with folks that are coming from such a totally different mind set that absolutely nothing anyone says seems to make any impression in the slightest. I feel like we come from two different planets or something!

    Have you read the Old Roman Symbol and the Didache yet?

  4. cherylu:

    And for the record, I am protestant.

    OK, so you belong to a church which didn’t even exist until the 16th Century. Bearing in mind that the Catholic Church is 500 years older than yours, what makes you think that your church managed to get the Christian message right? Why shouldn’t we believe the Catholics? Do you believe they got it wrong for five centuries?

    So I take it you have proof that every one of those statments by Ignatius, (and the others that I haven’t quoted) were never made by him at all? Every single one? That is a lot of forgery!

    It is a lot of forgery, and commentators agree that it is a lot of forgery. I have written a basic analysis of the Ignatian epistles, which you can read by clicking here.

    It is now very obvious that you’ve never studied early church history yourself. I studied it at university, and I continue to study it in my own time. If you wish to argue about the beliefs of the early church fathers, you will need to learn more about the subject.

  5. cherylu,
    Burke does not represent “the” unitarians. True, many unitarians, like Dave and Dale, do not believe in the prehuman existence of the Messiah. However, most unitarians do (though not as Almighty God, but as the first member of creation). There are many more differences between various unitarians. You just can’t sweep them all in one pile.

  6. Dave,
    You write: “It is not until Justin Martyr (mid-second century) that we find a Christian calling Jesus God.”

    This is not true.

    1) Justin calls Jesus theos, but even the Bible refers to Jesus as theos. Unitarians usually have no problem with Jesus being theos. However, as you well know, this doesn’t imply him to be “the only true God,” God Almighty.

    Justin was an outspoken subordinationist, he believed the prehuman Jesus was brought into existence by God.

    Justin: “The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him.” (“The Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Volume I, page 184.)

    “You perceive, my hearers, if you bestow attention, that the Scripture has declared that this Offspring was begotten by the Father before all things created; and that which is begotten is numerically distinct from that which begets, any one will admit.” (Ibid., page 264.)

    Any one will admit…? :-)

    2) Also, in his writings that are considered to be authentic, Ignatius calls Jesus theos way before Justin did.
    From his epistle to the Ephesians, chapter VII:
    “But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word before the ages but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” (“The Ante-Nicene Fathers,” Volume I, page 52.)

    3) In harmony with this also “The Shepherd of Hermas” (first half 2nd century) clarifies: “The Son of God is older than all His creatures, so that He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation.” (Book Third, Similitude Ninth, Chap. XII.)

    Also Clement of Alexandria calls Jesus theos in a secondary sense. He clearly represents God’s Son as being distinct from God Almighty, as he writes:
    “And having been called “good,” and taking the starting note from this first expression, He commences His teaching with this, turning the pupil to God, the good, and first and only dispenser of eternal life, which the Son, who received it of Him, gives to us.” (“The Ante-Nicene Fathers,” Volume II, page 593.) The original Giver of eternal life is clearly depicted superior to the one who passes it along.

    And: “But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is the most perfect, and most holy, and most potent, and most princely, and most kingly, and most beneficent.” (Ibid., page 524.)

    Again, as Robert M. Grant states in his book “Gods and the One God”: “Before Nicaea, Christian theology was almost universally subordinationist.” (page 160)

  7. Helez:

    You write: “It is not until Justin Martyr (mid-second century) that we find a Christian calling Jesus God.”

    This is not true.

    1) Justin calls Jesus theos, but even the Bible refers to Jesus as theos. Unitarians usually have no problem with Jesus being theos. However, as you well know, this doesn’t imply him to be “the only true God,” God Almighty.

    Yes, I should have phrased that more carefully; I meant that before Justin Martyr, nobody calls Jesus “God” in an Arian or Binitarian sense.

    I agree with your analysis of Justin; he was an ontological subordinationist.

    I mentioned the Shepherd of Hermas in one of my Week 2 rebuttals to Bowman; its Christology is essentially the same as Justin’s.

    You’ve quoted from Ignatius’ Epistle to the Ephesians, so I’ll direct you to my article on the Ignatian Epistles (here). The passage that you quote is a later interpolation.

    Clement of Alexandria was a celebrated Christian Platonist, so it is not surprising that his Christology is also heretical. Clement later became the teacher of Origen, who was ditheistic.

    You quote Robert M. Grant: “Before Nicaea, Christian theology was almost universally subordinationist.” I totally agree with this.

  8. Dave, thanks for your response.

    Justin didn’t refer to Jesus as being theos in a Binitarian sense (and you seem to agree as you call him an “ontological subordinationist”), as he clearly believed that the true God was only one person, i.e. the Father of Jesus. I also think “Arian” is definitely an inappropriate term for anyone believing that the Messiah pre-existed as the Son of God in heaven, was created, distinct from and subordinate to God while being God’s agent in creating the world. Justin’s christology was just as much “Arian” as yours is “Socinian.”

    In regard of Ignatius’ epistle to the Ephesians, you sometimes regard the shorter Greek version to be the authentic one, but when it’s more to your liking, you disregard that shorter version in favor of the longer version. Sometimes you reject *both* versions, based on theological bias.
    Anyway, Jesus is undeniably referred to as theos by Ignatius in both versions.

    I agree that Clement of Alexandria goes beyond what the Bible says about Jesus.

  9. [...] previously called round 3 a draw. But my call was premature; Burke kept punching, in a long set of comments (#4-15), which [...]

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