Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Spotify | Email | RSS
In this episode I first reply to a critique of podcast 145 – ‘Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies! by blogger Steve Hays. This centers on the following inconsistent triad:
1. Jesus died.
2. Jesus was fully divine.
3. No fully divine being has ever died.
While Hays gestures at a solution, he doesn’t actually give one; he merely assumes that somehow the two natures traditions show how the inconsistent triad is in fact consistent. But he only manages to assert an apparent contradiction.
We then hear from some Catholic Answers apologists, who also evoke the doctrine of two natures, which they say imply that Christ could “experience death,” separation of soul and body.
Finally, we hear answer about Jesus’s death on the cross from evangelical apologist Matt Slick of CARM. Our discussion reveals that catholic traditions use terms like “Christ” and “Jesus” and “Son” ambiguously. These can refer to: the human nature, the divine nature (the Logos), or the whole Christ (with divine and human natures). As I understand him, Mr. Slick does have an answer to my inconsistent triad, arguing that “Jesus” is ambiguous there. On one reading, 2 is false, and on another, 1 is false. I argue, though, that this solution comes at too high a cost.
Do you agree? Or have I overlooked something relevant about “two natures” theories? Or are you willing to reform catholic traditions in light of clear scriptural teaching?
Links for this episode:
- Steve Hays, “The Immortal Dies!”
- Catholic Answers: Did God die on the cross?
- Matt Slick: Did God dies on the Cross?
- podcast 178 – Apologists on how God can die – Part 1
- podcast 145 – ‘Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!
- Dualism and Mind
- Universals
- podcast 143 – Dr. Timothy Pawl’s In Defense of Conciliar Christology – Part 1
- podcast 144 – Dr. Timothy Pawl’s In Defense of Conciliar Christology – Part 2
- Mark 15:37; Matthew 24:36; Luke 8:45; Luke 4:2; James 1:13; John 5:19; Luke 22:42; John 1:18, Mark 1:35; Revelation 3:12; Luke 11:20; John 14:10.
- This week’s thinking music is “I Dare You” by Little Glass Men.
john wrote to me on MAY 2, 2017 @ 6:23 AM:
i need clarification
do you believe that an immortal conscious being in his INVISIBLE immortal SELF fully experienced the feelings of LIFE departing ?
so he had “first hand” experience in his invisible self the feelings of death taking over his life?
“fully god” and “fully human” = 1 person, so “fully god” fully felt in his invisible person the feelings of finite death?
My reply:
Hi John, This many levels of replies is getting to narrow for my browser, so I’m answering this way:
I believe that Jesus is an immortal conscious being with an invisible immortal nature that is joined with a duelist (visible-invisible) human nature. This two-nature (divine-human) being experienced the suffering of biological death on the cross. So the two-nature being had first-hand experience of death taking over his biological life. This in no way indicates death of the divine nature.
Pax,
Jim
sir, i seek further clarification because i still don’t get it.
quote :
I believe that Jesus is an immortal conscious being with an invisible immortal nature that is joined with a duelist (visible-invisible) human nature.
end quote
this conscious being which “feels” “divine powers” fully experiences/feels human feelings, right?
quote :
This two-nature (divine-human) being experienced the suffering of biological death on the cross. So the two-nature being had first-hand experience of death taking over his biological life. This in no way indicates death of the divine nature.
end quote
are you saying person, MINUS divine nature EXPERIENCED biological death
or person PLUS divine nature PLUS biological nature SIMULTANEOUSLY experienced biological death?
quote :
So the two-nature being had first-hand experience of death taking over his biological life.
end quote
so 1 person, 2 natures fully felt biological life fleeting ?
so in other words 1 person fully lost control of life when it was given up?
Hi John,
I am having trouble following all of your questions. I can understand and answer one of your questions. It follows:
“So 1 person, 2 natures fully felt biological life fleeting?”
My answer is yes.
Pax,
Jim
I think that the stated triad is too imprecise. Here’s an alternative triad that I can eventually develop into a blog post:
1. Jesus died.
2. Jesus had a complete immortal nature that was joined with a complete mortal nature.
3. The immortal nature experienced the death of the joined mortal nature.
Peace,
Jim
Hi Jim – about your 3 – how does this relate to Jesus? Is he the immortal nature that experiences the death of this other guy? Or are you thinking of Jesus as the whole composed of those two natures? Are you saying that it is false that Jesus died? Rather, he only experienced the death of this other being, this mortal nature?
Hi Dale,
I see that my third statement lacks the precision that I desire. To clarify, I propose the tradition that Jesus is one person with two natures, not that I hold to every point in the patristic creeds.
Below is a recast of my triad:
1. Jesus suffered biological death.
2. Jesus had a complete immortal nature that was joined with a complete mortal nature.
3. The immortal nature experienced the death of the joined mortal nature.
I hope this recast is clearer, and I will consider the need for more revision. Also, I can explain more about my view of the Incarnation and a complete human nature.
Pax,
Jim
Oops, I introduced that Jesus is one person, but I did not add that to the triad. Perhaps this is clearer:
1. Jesus suffered biological death.
2. Jesus was one person with a complete immortal nature that was joined with a complete mortal nature.
3. The immortal nature experienced the death of the joined mortal nature.
James
your third point ‘The immortal nature experienced the death of the joined mortal nature.’
Am I correct to interpret this to mean that the divine nature did not actually die though it somehow experienced it second hand, remaining immortal itself?
If this is correct, in what sense can it be claimed that Jesus the person died?
Hi Paul,
I appreciate your question. I need to preface my answer with more explanation about my view of the Incarnation and a complete human nature.
First, I will outline relevant points of an individual human nature and death. I propose some type of substance dualism of the mind. This includes overdetermination of a conscious neurological system and a conscious spirit. Human death is the cessation of human biological life that includes the neurological system; while the postmortem human spirit potentially continues with consciousness and communication. The apostolic church knew little about neurology, but their primary view of human death focused on the cessation of biological life while supporting a potentially conscious intermediate state.
Second, I will outline relevant points of the divine nature. For example, “The primary attributes of God are inexhaustible love, inexhaustible perception, and inexhaustible force.” I quoted this from the abstract from my model of God and time in my 2016 paper “Semiclassical Theism and the Passage of Planck Times” (https://philpapers.org/archive/GOESTA-2.pdf). I also support that these divine attributes cohere with my coregency model of the Trinity in my 2016 paper “Identical Legal Entities and the Trinity: Relative-Social Trinitarianism” (http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2016-4.181919061425a/283).
Third, I will outline relevant points of Christology. “Christ,” “the Son of God,” and “the second person of the Trinity” are references to the respective divine person who eventually incarnated. The Incarnation was a hypostatic union of an uncreated divine nature and a created human nature. The death of Christ was the biological death of Christ while his human spirit and divine nature continued to exist. I also support a literal descent of Christ into hades in my 2012 Conditional Futurism, chapter 13.
Before I address your questions, I will address Dale Tuggy’s triad based on the third part of his podcast series (https://trinities.org/blog/podcast-180-apologists-on-how-god-can-die-part-3/). I strongly disagree with the implications and ambiguities of his triad.
First, the statement “Jesus died” implies to me that his biological life ceased to exist while his human spirit and divine nature continued to exist.
Second, the statement “Jesus was fully divine” coheres with belief that the Incarnation was a hypostatic union of an uncreated divine nature and a created human nature.
Third, the statement “No fully divine being has ever died” is false, but no uncreated divine nature has ever ceased to exist.
Now for the answer to your first question: “Am I correct to interpret this to mean that the divine nature did not actually die though it somehow experienced it second hand, remaining immortal itself?”
You responded to my alternative triad in my previous reply in this thread:
1. Jesus suffered biological death.
2. Jesus was one person with a complete immortal nature that was joined with a complete mortal nature.
3. The immortal nature experienced the death of the joined mortal nature.
You correctly state that I reject that the divine nature died, but there is no second hand experience within the divine-human hypostatic union. Sorry that my statement lacked precision. Christ has always been one person and has two natures since the Incarnation. This indicates that the divine nature of Christ experienced the biological death of Christ in a manner that was not second hand. However, the Father and the Holy Spirit experienced the death of Christ in a second hand manner.
Perhaps my answer leaves you with more questions, but I nonetheless clarified a main assumption in your questions.
Pax,
Jim
Hello Jim.
3. The immortal nature experienced the death of the joined mortal nature.
3*. The second person of the Trinity experienced death via the mortal nature.
Wouldn’t 3* be better than 3? (Now, 3* may not necessarily be helpful to your case.) I don’t know what it means to say that the immortal nature experienced (the) death (of the mortal nature).
Some humans experienced death. The “mortal nature” of those humans didn’t experience death, and neither did the immortal nature experience (the) death (of the joined mortal nature). Those humans experienced death because of the mortal nature (or mortality) they possess. Similarly, if anything, the second person of the Trinity experienced the death of the mortal nature that is joined to the immortal nature.
Further, it seems that 3 can lead to absurdity: if the immortal nature were to experience death, then it would no longer be a nature that is immortal because it died. Conversely, if the mortal nature were to experience death, then it would no longer be a nature that is mortal; the reverse would be the case, namely, a nature that is immortal. Or, maybe I’m just way off here.
Best,
Aaron
Correction: “Similarly, if anything, the second person of the Trinity experienced the death of the mortal nature that is joined to the immortal nature.”
I meant to say this: “Similarly, if anything, the second person of the Trinity experienced death via the mortal nature that is joined to the immortal nature.”
Hi Aaron, Yours is also correct. I was focusing on an alternative to Dale’s “No fully divine being has ever died.” And I’m sure that there are numerous alternatives. Pax, Jim
i need clarification
do you believe that an immortal conscious being in his INVISIBLE immortal SELF fully experienced the feelings of LIFE departing ?
so he had “first hand” experience in his invisible self the feelings of death taking over his life?
“fully god” and “fully human” = 1 person, so “fully god” fully felt in his invisible person the feelings of finite death?
Jim, thank you. I’d like to hear what you’d say to what I said. Here’s a repost.
I don’t know what it means to say that the immortal nature experienced (the) death (of the mortal nature).
Some humans experienced death. The “mortal nature” of those humans didn’t experience death, and neither did the immortal nature experience (the) death (of the joined mortal nature). Those humans experienced death because of the mortal nature (or mortality) they possess. Similarly, if anything, the second person of the Trinity experienced death via the mortal nature that is joined to the immortal nature.
Best,
Aaron
Comments are closed.