{"id":17089,"date":"2015-01-05T14:07:20","date_gmt":"2015-01-05T19:07:20","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=17089"},"modified":"2016-03-22T21:07:51","modified_gmt":"2016-03-23T01:07:51","slug":"podcast-69-james-lee-on-the-trinity-and-ontological-pluralism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-69-james-lee-on-the-trinity-and-ontological-pluralism\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 69 &#8211; James Lee on the Trinity and Ontological Pluralism"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3923\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-17089-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities069.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities069.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities069.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities069.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=17089-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities069.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities069.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-17092\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583-1024x530.jpg\" alt=\"IMAG0583\" width=\"492\" height=\"255\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583-1024x530.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583-300x155.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583-420x217.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583-460x238.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583-90x47.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/IMAG0583.jpg 1778w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 492px) 100vw, 492px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>In <a title=\"trinities podcast episode 69 mp3\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities%20069%20-%20James%20Lee%20on%20the%20Trinity%20and%20Ontological%20Pluralism.mp3\" target=\"_blank\">this episode<\/a> we hear <strong><a title=\"graduate students in Philosophy at Syracuse\" href=\"http:\/\/philosophy.syr.edu\/people\/grad_students.html\" target=\"_blank\">Mr. James Lee<\/a><\/strong> (PhD student in <a title=\"Syracuse University department of Philosophy\" href=\"http:\/\/philosophy.syr.edu\/people\/Faculty.html\" target=\"_blank\">Philosophy at Syracuse University<\/a>) present his paper <strong>&#8220;His Ways (of Being) Are Not Our Ways&#8221;<\/strong> at the Society of Christian Philosophers meeting on November 8, 2014\u00a0at Niagara University.<\/p>\n<p>Mr. Lee notes that if we translate <strong>standard, creedal trinitarian claims<\/strong> into the sort of logic taught in introductory college classes, we get what he calls <strong>&#8220;The Initial Formulation&#8221;<\/strong> (from <a title=\"James Lee's handout\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/Trinity.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">his handout<\/a>):<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-17096\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-handout-image.png\" alt=\"James Lee handout image\" width=\"317\" height=\"104\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-handout-image.png 317w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-handout-image-300x98.png 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-handout-image-90x30.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>But this group of claims is <strong>demonstrably incoherent<\/strong>. To see this, let&#8217;s translate back\u00a0into semi-normal English:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>TL1 &#8211; The Father isn&#8217;t the Son, and the Father isn&#8217;t the Spirit, and the Son isn&#8217;t the Spirit. (Those three are numerically distinct from one another.)<\/li>\n<li>TL2 &#8211; The Father is God (is divine), the Son is God (is divine) and the Spirit is God (is divine). Each of those three &#8220;is God&#8221; &#8211; that is, is divine.<\/li>\n<li>TL3 &#8211; There exists some x which is God (divine) and for any y, y is God (divine) only if x just is y. That is, there is some unique God.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Now, it is provable that <strong>if any two of these is true, the remaining one is false<\/strong>. Here are informal paraphrases of how each argument would go:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>If TL1 and TLS2 then not-TL3.\n<ul>\n<li>If Father, Son, and Spirit are three, and each is God (is divine) then it is false that there&#8217;s exactly one being which is God (is divine). (There would be three!)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>If TL1 and TL3 then not-TL2.\n<ul>\n<li>If Father, Son, and Spirit are three, and there is a unique being who is God (divine), then it is\u00a0false that each of Father, Son, and Spirit is God (divine). (Only one of them can be that <em>unique<\/em> being.)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>If TL2 and TL3, then not-TL1.\n<ul>\n<li>If each of Father, Son, and Spirit is God (divine), and there&#8217;s only one being who is God (divine), then it is false that Father, Son, and Spirit are numerically distinct. (They would have to be one and the same being, the one who is God.)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>There&#8217;s <strong>nothing controversial about this reasoning<\/strong>; each argument seems valid, and so it can&#8217;t be denied that the three claims TL1, TL2, and TL3 are an inconsistent set, a set such that not all of them can be true.<\/p>\n<p>Why is this a problem? Because we all know that<strong> inconsistent sets of claims can&#8217;t all be true<\/strong> &#8211; so at least one third of the Initial Formulation is false.\u00a0If &#8220;the&#8221; doctrine of the Trinity requires <em>these<\/em> three claims, then, it is false &#8211; &#8220;the&#8221; doctrine would then be a <strong>conjunction of claims, one of which is false<\/strong>, which makes the whole theory false. (e.g. If you assert A and B and C, and A and B are true, but C is false, then the whole claim &#8220;A and B and C&#8221; is false.)<\/p>\n<p>Here&#8217;s where the <strong>Christian philosopher\/analytic theologian says to him- or herself:<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>There must by something wrong with the formulations. Let&#8217;s<strong> see if we can reinterpret<\/strong> the traditional language so that it comes out seemingly self-consistent.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Self-consistency, of course, isn&#8217;t everything. We&#8217;d also want a Trinity theory to be well grounded in the Bible and\/or post-biblical catholic tradition. But self-consistency is a necessary condition for a doctrine being reasonably believed.<\/p>\n<p>In this talk, Mr. Lee explains some standard ways of making the claims come out self-consistent, each of which he thinks is problematic. <strong>He then explores a new way, based on the idea that there are fundamentally different kinds of being or existence (ontological pluralism)<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>You&#8217;ll want to have <a title=\"James Lee, handout for His Ways of Being Are not Our Ways\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/Trinity.pdf\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Mr. Lee&#8217;s handout<\/strong> in front of you<\/a> as you listen to this talk.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or <strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">itunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe and rate<\/strong> us in either or both). \u00a0It is also available on <a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLMCt15e8gG-g7t7wo9MCq9KSDSsvGNcsm\" target=\"_blank\">youtube <\/a>(scroll down &#8211; you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-17094\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2-1024x655.jpg\" alt=\"James Lee at the SCP in Niagara, 2014 - 2\" width=\"431\" height=\"276\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2-1024x655.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2-300x192.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2-420x269.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2-460x294.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2-90x58.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-Lee-at-the-SCP-in-Niagara-2014-2.jpg 1305w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 431px) 100vw, 431px\" \/><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;<a title=\"Ontological Pluralism\" href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Pluralism_%28philosophy%29#Ontological_pluralism\" target=\"_blank\">Ontological Pluralism<\/a>&#8221; at Wikipedia<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Ways of Being by Dr. Joshua Spencer\" href=\"http:\/\/onlinelibrary.wiley.com\/doi\/10.1111\/j.1747-9991.2012.00527.x\/abstract\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Ways of Being&#8221;<\/a> by <a title=\"Dr. Joshua Spencer\" href=\"http:\/\/www.joshuaspencer.net\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Joshua Spencer<\/a> &#8211; an introduction to ways of being in contemporary metaphysics, recommended by Mr. Lee.<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"trinities podcast episode 2 - the &quot;Athanasian&quot; creed\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/4892\" target=\"_blank\">episode 2 &#8211; the &#8220;Athanasian&#8221; creed<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"trinities podcast episode 68 Harriet Baber\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/6989\" target=\"_blank\">episode 68 &#8211;\u00a0Dr. Harriet Baber on Relative Identity and the Trinity<\/a><\/li>\n<li>previous trinities posts on\n<ul>\n<li>Dr. W.L. Craig&#8217;s\u00a0<a title=\"Cerberus posts\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=cerberus\" target=\"_blank\">Cerberus<\/a>\u00a0analogy<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"posts on &quot;social&quot; Trinity theories\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=social+trinitarian\" target=\"_blank\">social trinitarianism<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"posts on Leftow on the Trinity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=brian+leftow\" target=\"_blank\">Brian Leftow&#8217;s &#8220;Latin&#8221; Trinity theory<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"posts on relative identity\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=relative+identity\" target=\"_blank\">relative identity<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Kris McDaniel page at Syracuse\" href=\"http:\/\/asfaculty.syr.edu\/pages\/phi\/mcdaniel-kristopher.html\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Kris McDaniel<\/a> (<a title=\"Kris McDaniel's publications\" href=\"http:\/\/krmcdani.mysite.syr.edu\/my%20research3.htm\" target=\"_blank\">his publications<\/a>\u00a0&#8211; see particularly his &#8220;Ways of Being&#8221;)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode we hear Mr. James Lee (PhD student in Philosophy at Syracuse University) present his paper &#8220;His Ways (of Being) Are Not Our Ways&#8221; at the Society of Christian Philosophers meeting on November 8, 2014 at Niagara University.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":17092,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[58,10,5,9,57,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-17089","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-creeds","category-logic","category-modalism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17089","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=17089"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17089\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37387,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17089\/revisions\/37387"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/17092"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=17089"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=17089"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=17089"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}