{"id":2937,"date":"2011-07-25T13:32:08","date_gmt":"2011-07-25T17:32:08","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=2937"},"modified":"2015-03-06T23:01:27","modified_gmt":"2015-03-07T04:01:27","slug":"god-the-baby-rama-avatar-of-vishnu","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-the-baby-rama-avatar-of-vishnu\/","title":{"rendered":"God the baby &#8211; Rama \/ Ram, avatar of Vishnu"},"content":{"rendered":"<figure id=\"attachment_2982\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-2982\" style=\"width: 266px\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.buymeposters.com\/product\/406202\/man-holding-baby.php\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-2982\" title=\"man with baby\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/man-with-baby.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"266\" height=\"354\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/man-with-baby.jpg 266w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/man-with-baby-225x300.jpg 225w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/man-with-baby-90x120.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 266px) 100vw, 266px\" \/><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-2982\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">(click for image credit)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p>Last Christmas season I <a title=\"Christmas Amazement post\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/christmas-amazement\/\" target=\"_blank\">posted<\/a> in a slightly <strong>Grinch-like<\/strong> way about catholic Incarnation theories, and about some Christians&#8217; lack of critical thinking about them.<\/p>\n<p>There&#8217;s an <strong>interesting human impulse<\/strong> observable here. The best analogy I can think of right now is posters like the one to the left. The ladies love them.<\/p>\n<p>Why? There&#8217;s the sex appeal of the dude. And the cute baby. Everyone likes a cute baby.<\/p>\n<p>But there&#8217;s something else, something affecting about a big, strong, tough manly man, stooping to gently cradle a teeny, vulnerable baby. He&#8217;s made himself so <em>vulnerable<\/em>. Of course, that adds to the &#8220;sexy&#8221; part. My point is, the affecting nature of the man&#8217;s condescension is a distinct element of the appeal.<\/p>\n<p>Now imagine that God, <strong>big strong God<\/strong>, becomes an ignorant, weak, dependent little baby. There&#8217;s a similar, recognizable emotional tug there. What an amazing idea! Of course, it may be amazing in part because it&#8217;s contradictory. But I&#8217;ll not argue that here.<\/p>\n<p>Instead, a bit of <strong>cross-cultural comparison<\/strong>. Christians aren&#8217;t the only ones who go in for the idea of a god who comes down from his mighty position, to be a cute, puny little baby.<\/p>\n<p><strong>The <em><a title=\"Ramayana @ wikipedia\" href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Ramayana\" target=\"_blank\">Ramayana<\/a><\/em><\/strong> is an epic poem, and a sort of scripture in Hinduism. Parts of it go back <em>perhaps<\/em> to the 400s BCE, though it comes in many versions, some of which are from the high middle ages. The clip below is from a wildly popular Indian television series from 1986 called <em><a title=\"Ramayan online\" href=\"http:\/\/www.hindilinks4u.net\/2008\/10\/ramanand-sagars-ramayan-1986-all-episodes.html\" target=\"_blank\">Ramayan<\/a><\/em>. If you&#8217;re interested in Hinduism, I recommend it, but it&#8217;s a real time\u00a0commitment\u00a0to watch the whole thing. I&#8217;ve edited some bits of \u00a0it, to include the more theological parts, and to get it down to youtube length. It&#8217;s here, <strong>Ram<\/strong> or Rama, is supposed to be an avatar of the god Vishnu.<\/p>\n<p>My point is <em>not<!--more--><\/em> that Christians copied the idea of incarnation from Hindu avatar theories. I don&#8217;t think that is true, nor can I rule out some amount of Christian influence is some latter day avatar theorizing. My<strong> main point<\/strong> is the common human reaction to the image of a baby god. Also like Christians, the characters wonder whether or not this is contradictory. See <strong>how they dismiss<\/strong> the worry, or rather, how a major Hindu god does.<\/p>\n<p>For the record, I do not claim, but I do deny that the <em>Trimurti<\/em> has anything to do with Christian Trinity theories. I&#8217;m aware of no evidence of causal influence either way. Perhaps in a future post I&#8217;ll explore what these facts about Hinduism may have to do with Christian theology.<\/p>\n<p>Below is a <strong>play-by-play commentary<\/strong>, so you know who is who, and what is going on. \u00a0Enjoy!<\/p>\n<p><object width=\"425\" height=\"349\" classid=\"clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000\" codebase=\"http:\/\/download.macromedia.com\/pub\/shockwave\/cabs\/flash\/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0\"><param name=\"allowFullScreen\" value=\"true\" \/><param name=\"allowscriptaccess\" value=\"always\" \/><param name=\"src\" value=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/v\/IrH7dtuO4Vc?version=3&amp;hl=en_US\" \/><param name=\"allowfullscreen\" value=\"true\" \/><embed width=\"425\" height=\"349\" type=\"application\/x-shockwave-flash\" src=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/v\/IrH7dtuO4Vc?version=3&amp;hl=en_US\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\" allowscriptaccess=\"always\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\" \/><\/object><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>The scene starts in <strong>Vishnu&#8217;s heaven<\/strong>; he&#8217;s the blue guy relaxing on the couch. He&#8217;s called the Preserver, and is a god of grace and compassion.<\/li>\n<li>:16 &#8211; On behalf of many, <strong>Brahma<\/strong> the Creator god beseeches Vishnu to come to earth, which is oppressed by the demon King Ravan. Others join in.<\/li>\n<li>1:37 &#8211; that&#8217;s <strong>Ravan<\/strong>, rocking that mustache and literally treading the earth under foot. He has a good bad guy laugh.<\/li>\n<li>2:08 &#8211; <strong>Shiva<\/strong>\u00a0(&#8220;the Destroyer&#8221; &#8211; though he&#8217;s not a bad or purely negative deity) appears, in leopard skin, to urge Vishnu to descend and take birth as a human avatar. (Aside: he&#8217;s the third of the so-called &#8220;<strong>Hindu Trinity<\/strong>&#8221; (Triumurti) along with Vishnu and Brahma.) Vishnu greets him as &#8220;God of gods;&#8221; I&#8217;m not sure if that&#8217;s flattery, or if the source here assumes him to be the one high god. One might assume that Vishnu, not Shiva would be in that position in the <em>Ramayana<\/em>&#8230; In some Vishnu-centered texts, Shiva is actually a manifestation of Vishnu, but that&#8217;s not going on here.<\/li>\n<li>2:24 &#8211; The &#8220;<strong>Trinity<\/strong>&#8221; (it&#8217;s not really a Trinity, but that&#8217;s another post) is now on the left of the screen, together with Vishnu&#8217;s wife, the popular goddess Lakshmi.<\/li>\n<li>3:03 &#8211; A very hairy <strong>guru<\/strong> takes up the argument. Shiva says he&#8217;s the guru of the gods.<\/li>\n<li>3:57 &#8211; That circular saw blade on Vishnu&#8217;s finger is a &#8220;divine weapon.&#8221; His other hand holds a conch shell to blow like a horn. Why is he blue? It&#8217;s the color of the sky, is the common explanation.<\/li>\n<li>4:24 &#8211; Vishnu, sympathising with oppressed humanity, decides to be <strong>born as a man<\/strong> to conquer Ravan, restoring balance to the earth. He&#8217;ll be born as a prince to King Dasarath.<\/li>\n<li>4:52 &#8211; Here he is in human form, the baby Ram (Rama). It seems that <strong>Lord Vishnu \/ Ram needs a diaper<\/strong>! He cutes it up, to the delight of the king, his queens, and Shiva, viewing from his holy mountain. The god, possibly the high God, is a cute toddler. Is this patently contradictory\u00a0<strong>nonsense, or a wonderful, almost unthinkable truth?<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>9:00 &#8211; Shiva and his wife or consort Parvati delve into this question. They observe little Ram having a temper tantrum, and she wonders how a\/the god could do this. It is &#8220;The deepest of mysteries, my Lady.&#8221; Yes, <strong>Shiva here is a mysterian!<\/strong> He adds that God must become a man to show man the true path, by example. The view here seems to be that Vishnu has <em>really become a human<\/em> being, with all the limitations thereof, and not that he merely <em>appears<\/em> to be a human. In other words, this is not a docetist avatar theory being presupposed. There is only the briefest flash of worry here about whether this story is self-consistent or self-contradictory.<\/li>\n<li>10:52 &#8211; <strong>WWRD<\/strong> &#8211; &#8220;What Would Ram Do?&#8221; Ram is presented throughout the <em>Ramayana<\/em> as an ideal human, a paragon of virtue.<\/li>\n<li>11:19 &#8211; Shiva decides he wants in on this salvific action; he&#8217;ll descend as an avatar too (for the 11th time), as <strong>Hanuman<\/strong>, to help Ram in his quest to defeat Ravan.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div>Bonus 1: the much-condensed <a title=\"Ramayana \" href=\"http:\/\/youtu.be\/yQd5GdVHuqY\" target=\"_blank\">computer animation<\/a> version of the <em>Ramayana <\/em>(click CC button for English subtitles).<\/div>\n<div>Bonus 2: the much-condensed\u00a0<a title=\"Ramayan 1992\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=sKxmF6UXbSw\" target=\"_blank\">Japanimation version<\/a> from 1992.<\/div>\n<div>Bonus 3: a <a title=\"Ramayan - countesy of Imagine TV\" href=\"http:\/\/youtu.be\/ruh-45tUxGA\" target=\"_blank\">newer t.v. version<\/a>. Will <a title=\"newer Ramayana\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3029\" target=\"_blank\">post soon<\/a> with excerpts from this one.<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Last Christmas season I posted in a slightly Grinch-like way about catholic Incarnation theories, and about some Christians&#8217; lack of critical thinking about them. There&#8217;s an interesting human impulse observable here. The best analogy I can think of right now is posters like the one to the left. The ladies love them. Why? There&#8217;s the&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-the-baby-rama-avatar-of-vishnu\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">God the baby &#8211; Rama \/ Ram, avatar of Vishnu<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":2982,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[15,45,33,8,20],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2937","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-christology","category-hinduism","category-incarnation","category-linkage","category-mystery"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2937","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2937"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2937\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":35052,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2937\/revisions\/35052"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2982"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2937"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2937"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2937"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}