{"id":34672,"date":"2015-01-26T10:28:31","date_gmt":"2015-01-26T15:28:31","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=34672"},"modified":"2016-03-22T21:02:25","modified_gmt":"2016-03-23T01:02:25","slug":"podcast-72-is-proverbs-8-about-jesus-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-72-is-proverbs-8-about-jesus-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 72 &#8211; Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_7810\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-34672-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities072.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities072.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities072.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities072.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=34672-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities072.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities072.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-34674 size-full\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/woman-at-podium.jpg\" alt=\"Lady Wisdom from Proverbs 8. Will you listen to her?\" width=\"448\" height=\"316\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/woman-at-podium.jpg 448w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/woman-at-podium-300x212.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/woman-at-podium-420x296.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/woman-at-podium-90x63.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 448px) 100vw, 448px\" \/><strong>Do our earliest surviving post-New-Testament writings<\/strong>\u00a0interpret Proverbs 8 as being about the pre-human Jesus? And do they teach the pre-human existence of Jesus at all?<\/p>\n<p>In this episode, I explain why I try to avoid <strong>the term &#8220;Arian,&#8221;<\/strong> and respond to a critique of\u00a0episode 71 (linked\u00a0below), explaining some <strong>problems with the surviving letters from Ignatius.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Then we look at the other &#8220;apostolic fathers,&#8221; including 1 and 2 Clement, Barnabas, the Didache, the letter of Polycarp, and the Shepherd of Hermas, with the above questions in mind.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or <strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">itunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both). \u00a0It is also available on <a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLMCt15e8gG-g7t7wo9MCq9KSDSsvGNcsm\" target=\"_blank\">youtube <\/a>(scroll down \u2013 you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode<\/strong>:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-34680\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ignatius_of_Antioch.jpg\" alt=\"Painting of Ignatius of Antioch (one of the apostolic fathers) from the Menologion of Basil II (c. 1000 AD)\" width=\"462\" height=\"318\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ignatius_of_Antioch.jpg 643w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ignatius_of_Antioch-300x207.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ignatius_of_Antioch-420x289.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ignatius_of_Antioch-460x317.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ignatius_of_Antioch-90x62.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 462px) 100vw, 462px\" \/><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Dr. Dustin Smith&#8217;s lecture &#8220;<strong><a title=\"Dr. Dustin Smith, Jesus and Lady Sophia\" href=\"http:\/\/youtu.be\/UbvagPlbuyk\" target=\"_blank\">Jesus and Lady Sophia<\/a><\/strong>.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>Rowan Williams&#8217;s <em><a title=\"Arius: Heresy and Tradition\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0802849695\" target=\"_blank\">Arius: Heresy and Tradition<\/a><\/em>\n<ul>\n<li>This is the best non-polemical explanation of where Arius was coming from.<\/li>\n<li>But for the story of Athanasius and the 4th c. catholics who came to be known as &#8220;Arians,&#8221; the best introductory\u00a0source is Rubenstein&#8217;s <a title=\"When Jesus Became God, by Richard Rubenstein\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0156013150\" target=\"_blank\"><em>When Jesus Became God<\/em><\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>Mr. Eliseo Rodriquez&#8217;s <a title=\"response to trinities podcast 71\" href=\"http:\/\/www.spreaker.com\/user\/arianism_today\/response-to-dale-tuggys-podcast-71\" target=\"_blank\">response to podcast 71<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li>and his <a title=\"Arianism Today website\" href=\"http:\/\/goarian.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Arianism Today<\/a>\u00a0website.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;<a title=\"&quot;Trinity&quot; in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\">Trinity<\/a>&#8221; in the<em> Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/li>\n<li>Holmes, ed. <a title=\"Holmes, the Apostolic Fathers\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0801031087\" target=\"_blank\"><em>The Apostolic Fathers<\/em><\/a> (<a title=\"Holmes, the Apostolic Fathers\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/B0085BA9G6\" target=\"_blank\">kindle<\/a>)\n<ul>\n<li>More up to date translations and scholarship than the book below, but fewer ancient writings. The quotations in this episode are from this.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><em><a title=\"The Ante-Nicene Fathers\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/1602064695\" target=\"_blank\">The Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 Volume I &#8211; The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus<\/a><\/em>\n<ul>\n<li>Old 19th c. collection, but still useful. Contains the spurious letters of Ignatius, and also the corrupted longer versions of his seven genuine (?) letters.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>the <strong>&#8220;apostolic fathers&#8221;<\/strong> discussed in this episode\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"Ignatius of Antioch\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Ignatius_of_Antioch#Letters\" target=\"_blank\">Ignatius of Antioch<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"1 Clement \" href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/1clement.html\" target=\"_blank\">1 Clement<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"2 Clement\" href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/2clement.html\" target=\"_blank\">2 Clement<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"the Didache\" href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/didache.html\" target=\"_blank\">the Didache<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Polycarp of Smyrna\" href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/polycarp.html\" target=\"_blank\">Polycarp of Smyrna<\/a><\/li>\n<li>the so-called <a title=\"the letter of Barnabas\" href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/barnabas.html\" target=\"_blank\">letter of Barnabas<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"The Shepherd of Hermas\" href=\"http:\/\/www.earlychristianwritings.com\/shepherd.html\" target=\"_blank\">The Shepherd of Hermas<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>this episode&#8217;s thinking music<\/strong> is by\u00a0<a title=\"Jason Shaw at the Free Music Archive\" href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jason_Shaw\/\" target=\"_blank\">Jason Shaw<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;<a title=\"&quot;River Meditation&quot; by Jason Shaw at the Free Music Archive\" href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jason_Shaw\/Audionautix_Acoustic\/RIVER_MEDITATION___________2-58\" target=\"_blank\">River Meditation<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;<a title=\"Jason Shaw, &quot;Pioneer&quot; at the Free Music Archive\" href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jason_Shaw\/Audionautix_Acoustic\/PIONEERS______________2-53\" target=\"_blank\">Pioneers<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Do our earliest surviving post-New-Testament writings interpret Proverbs 8 as being about the pre-human Jesus?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":34674,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,15,14,33,57,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-34672","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-christology","category-history","category-incarnation","category-podcast","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/34672","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=34672"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/34672\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37383,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/34672\/revisions\/37383"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/34674"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=34672"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=34672"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=34672"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}