{"id":35089,"date":"2015-03-16T16:39:54","date_gmt":"2015-03-16T20:39:54","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=35089"},"modified":"2016-03-22T20:50:07","modified_gmt":"2016-03-23T00:50:07","slug":"podcast-79-dr-john-piper-not-everyone-elect","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-79-dr-john-piper-not-everyone-elect\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 79 &#8211; Dr. John Piper on why not everyone is elect"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3167\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-35089-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities079.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities079.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities079.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities079.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=35089-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities079.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities079.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-35091\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Photo_of_John_Piper_Oct_2010-300x253.jpg\" alt=\"John Piper in 2010, image from Wiikipedia\" width=\"300\" height=\"253\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Photo_of_John_Piper_Oct_2010-300x253.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Photo_of_John_Piper_Oct_2010-420x354.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Photo_of_John_Piper_Oct_2010-460x388.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Photo_of_John_Piper_Oct_2010-90x76.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Photo_of_John_Piper_Oct_2010.jpg 490w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/><strong>If all and only people whom God eternally and unconditionally chooses are saved, then why aren&#8217;t all people saved?<\/strong> In a recent episode of Dr. John Piper&#8217;s\u00a0<a title=\"John Piper's Ask Pastor John podcast\" href=\"http:\/\/www.desiringgod.org\/interviews\/by-series\/ask-pastor-john\" target=\"_blank\">Ask Pastor John podcast<\/a>, (<a title=\"Ask Pastor John episode 547\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/askpastorjohn\/if-god-is-so-happy-why-did-he-create-the-non-elect-episode-547\" target=\"_blank\">#547 &#8211; \u00a0If God Is So Happy, Why Did He Create the Non-Elect?<\/a>), a listener wrote in with this question. In this episode of the trinities podcast, I interact with Dr. Piper&#8217;s answer, which focuses on <strong><a title=\"Romans 9:22-23\" href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Romans+9%3A22-23&amp;version=ESV\" target=\"_blank\">Romans 9:22-23<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>With a little help from the <strong>LogicBot 2000<\/strong>, I evaluate a few of his arguments.<\/p>\n<p>Then\u00a0I discuss <strong>competing, valid arguments<\/strong> that any Christian must choose between:<\/p>\n<p><strong>Argument 1<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>G: God never does any action which is intrinsically wrong.<\/p>\n<p>E: God unilaterally caused someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree was able to do other than she actually does.<\/p>\n<p>Therefore,<\/p>\n<p>not-W: It is not the case that it is intrinsically wrong to unilaterally cause someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree is able to do other than she actually does.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>Argument 2<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>G: God never does any action which is intrinsically wrong.<\/p>\n<p>W: It is intrinsically wrong to unilaterally cause someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree is able to do other than she actually does.<\/p>\n<p>Therefore,<\/p>\n<p>not-E: It is not the case that God unilaterally caused someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree was able to do other than she actually does.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Though both arguments are valid, it can&#8217;t be that both are sound &#8211; one must have a false premise. But is it W or E? I take it that Dr. Piper would endorse Argument 1. I discuss some <strong>exegetical reasons to doubt his premise E<\/strong>. If we have more reason to believe W than we have to believe E, then we should be persuaded by Argument 2. Clearly, though, <strong>the issue requires a full look<\/strong> at Paul&#8217;s doctrine of predestination.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or <strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on <a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLMCt15e8gG-g7t7wo9MCq9KSDSsvGNcsm\" target=\"_blank\">Youtube <\/a>(scroll down \u2013 you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"Dale on the concepts of valid and sound arguments\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/vPRfNdLxSoQ?list=PL0B58AB39400D982E\" target=\"_blank\">validity and soundness explained<\/a><\/li>\n<li>trinities podcast episodes relevant to Jesus&#8217;s &#8220;<strong>I am<\/strong> [he]&#8221; statements\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 61\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-61-dr-dustin-smith-on-preexistence-in-ancient-jewish-thought\/\" target=\"_blank\"><span style=\"line-height: 1.5;\">podcast 61 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought<\/span><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast episode 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-62-dr-dustin-smith-on-the-preexistence-of-jesus-in-the-gospel-of-john\/\">podcast\u00a062 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast episode 63 \u2013 Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-63-thomas-belsham-and-other-scholars-on-john-858\/\">podcast \u00a063 \u2013 Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast episode 66 \u2013 Before Abraham was\u2026 what?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-66-before-abraham-was-what\/\">podcast 66 \u2013 Before Abraham was\u2026 what?<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"Rethinking Hell - Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism\" href=\"http:\/\/rethinkinghell.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Rethinking Hell<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0(<a title=\"Rethinking Hell podcast\" href=\"http:\/\/rethinkinghell.com\/podcast\" target=\"_blank\">podcast<\/a>)<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-35099\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sad-dog-300x177.jpg\" alt=\"sad dog\" width=\"300\" height=\"177\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sad-dog-300x177.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sad-dog-90x53.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sad-dog.jpg 405w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/><\/li>\n<li><strong>Edward Fudge<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"interview of Edward Fudge\" href=\"http:\/\/www.christianpost.com\/news\/interview-scholar-edward-fudge-on-alternative-third-view-of-hell-51497\/\" target=\"_blank\">interview<\/a><\/li>\n<li>&#8220;<a title=\"Fudge, the fire that consumes\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4\" target=\"_blank\">The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Hell<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;<a title=\"Edward Fudge, Rethinking Hell\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=zkFuumEFZRU\" target=\"_blank\">Rethinking Hell<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"Exodus 9\" href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Exodus+9&amp;version=GNT\" target=\"_blank\">Exodus 9<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Theologian<strong> <a title=\"Dr. Jack Cottrell\" href=\"http:\/\/jackcottrell.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Jack Cottrell<\/a>.<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"The Grace of God and the Will of Man, edited by Clark H. Pinnock\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/1556616910\" target=\"_blank\"><em>The Grace of God and the Will of Man<\/em><\/a>, edited by Clark H. Pinnock, which contains Dr. Cottrell&#8217;s &#8220;<strong>The Nature of Divine Sovereignty<\/strong>.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s <strong>thinking music<\/strong> is by <a title=\"Joshwoodward.com\" href=\"http:\/\/www.joshwoodward.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Josh Woodward<\/a>. It is &#8220;<a title=\"Under the Stairs (instrumental version) by Josh Woodward\" href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Josh_Woodward\/Breadcrumbs\/JoshWoodward-Breadcrumbs-NoVox-05-UnderTheStairs\" target=\"_blank\">Under the Stairs<\/a>&#8221; from his\u00a0album <a title=\"Breadcrumbs - an album by Josh Woodward\" href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Josh_Woodward\/Breadcrumbs\/\" target=\"_blank\">Breadcrumbs<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"unfa's recording of whining dog sounds\" href=\"http:\/\/www.freesound.org\/people\/unfa\/sounds\/160478\/\" target=\"_blank\">The whining dog sounds<\/a> were recorded by &#8220;<a title=\"user &quot;unfa&quot; at freesound\" href=\"http:\/\/www.freesound.org\/people\/unfa\/\" target=\"_blank\">Tobiasz &#8216;unfa&#8217; Karo?<\/a>.&#8221; No dog was harmed in the recording, so settle down.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If all and only people whom God eternally and unconditionally chooses are saved, then why aren\u2019t all people saved? In this episode I interact with Dr. John Piper\u2019s answer, which focuses on Romans 9:22-23<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":35091,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,62,6,8,10,57],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-35089","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-calvinism","category-complaints","category-linkage","category-logic","category-podcast"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35089","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=35089"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35089\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37376,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35089\/revisions\/37376"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/35091"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=35089"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=35089"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=35089"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}