{"id":35460,"date":"2015-06-01T12:51:46","date_gmt":"2015-06-01T16:51:46","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=35460"},"modified":"2016-03-22T20:26:23","modified_gmt":"2016-03-23T00:26:23","slug":"podcast-89-dr-trent-dougherty-on-the-problem-of-animal-pain","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-89-dr-trent-dougherty-on-the-problem-of-animal-pain\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 89 &#8211; Dr. Trent Dougherty on The Problem of Animal Pain"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6637\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-35460-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities089.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities089.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities089.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities089.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=35460-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities089.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities089.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><blockquote><p><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0230368484\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" size-full wp-image-35464 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The-Problem-of-Animal-Pain.jpg\" alt=\"The Problem of Animal Pain\" width=\"363\" height=\"500\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The-Problem-of-Animal-Pain.jpg 363w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The-Problem-of-Animal-Pain-218x300.jpg 218w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The-Problem-of-Animal-Pain-90x124.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 363px) 100vw, 363px\" \/><\/a>There may be<strong> traumas from which no finite mind could ever recover<\/strong>. But there is almost no evidence at all that any such evil has ever befallen any creature. (p. 129, emphasis added)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>When a human suffers, we can think of <strong>how at least some suffering may be good for<\/strong> him or her. Perhaps suffering is the best way to develop virtues like perseverance and compassion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>But what about animals?<\/strong> Don&#8217;t some animals undergo terrible pain? And yet, one would think that they don&#8217;t and can&#8217;t have such moral virtues &#8211; or even if they can, that they are not intelligent enough to appreciate the value of their own suffering. <strong>How could a good God allow<\/strong> the to suffer terribly, while being doomed to never understanding the value of it, assuming there is some?<\/p>\n<p>In his recent book <em><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0230368484\" target=\"_blank\">The Problem of Animal Pain: A Theodicy For All Creatures Great And Small<\/a><\/strong>,<\/em>\u00a0Dr. Trent Dougherty argues that a Christian should think that this will change. Christianity says that saved humans get a huge upgrade. Why not something similar for at least many animals? Near the start of his book, he says:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-35465\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Lion-and-Lamb.jpg\" alt=\"click for image credit\" width=\"400\" height=\"286\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Lion-and-Lamb.jpg 400w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Lion-and-Lamb-300x215.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Lion-and-Lamb-90x64.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>I will defend<strong> the thesis<\/strong> that a class of animals&#8230; will not only be resurrected&#8230; but will be deified in much the same way that humans will be. &#8230;they will become full-fledged persons&#8230; who can look back on their lives&#8230; then they will accept, though with no loss of the sense of the gravity of their suffering. that they were an important part of something infinitely valuable, and that in addition to being justly, lavishly rewarded for it,<strong> they will embrace their role<\/strong> in creation. In this embrace, evil is defeated. (p. 3)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>Are you convinced?<\/strong> Let us know in the comments or by audio feedback.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or <strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on <a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLMCt15e8gG-g7t7wo9MCq9KSDSsvGNcsm\" target=\"_blank\">Youtube <\/a>(scroll down \u2013 you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-35463\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/smartkitty.jpg\" alt=\"smartkitty\" width=\"240\" height=\"320\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/smartkitty.jpg 240w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/smartkitty-225x300.jpg 225w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/smartkitty-90x120.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 240px) 100vw, 240px\" \/><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0230368484\" target=\"_blank\">The Problem of Animal Pain: A Theodicy For All Creatures Great And Small<\/a>\u00a0<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/B00MNEE1YM\" target=\"_blank\">(kindle)<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/ndpr.nd.edu\/news\/54898-the-problem-of-animal-pain-a-theodicy-for-all-creatures-great-and-small\/\" target=\"_blank\">reviewed at <em>Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/journalofanalytictheology.com\/jat\/index.php\/jat\/article\/view\/jat.2015-3.130800021713a\/268\" target=\"_blank\">reviewed at the <em>Journal of Analytic Theology<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Michael Murray,<\/strong><em> <a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0199596328\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Nature Red in Tooth and Claw<\/strong>: Theism and the Problem of Animal Suffering<\/a><\/em>\u00a0(<a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/B005E8350U\" target=\"_blank\">kindle<\/a>)\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.apologetics315.com\/2014\/03\/book-review-nature-red-in-tooth-and.html\" target=\"_blank\">reviewed at Apologetics315<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/ndpr.nd.edu\/news\/23930-nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw-theism-and-the-problem-of-animal-suffering\/\" target=\"_blank\">reviewed at Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-59-dr-carl-mosser-on-salvation-as-deification\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast\u00a059 \u2013 Dr. Carl Mosser on salvation as deification<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=odLALboHdfk\" target=\"_blank\">Oh God<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/6et2ZSodS0g\" target=\"_blank\">Bruce Almighty<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Peter van Inwagen, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0199543976\" target=\"_blank\">The Problem of Evil<\/a><\/em> (<a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/B001P05NBK\" target=\"_blank\">kindle<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.oxfordreference.com\/view\/10.1093\/oi\/authority.20110803100331692\" target=\"_blank\">the principle of plentitud<\/a>e<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Little_Glass_Men\/Debut_EP\/The_Portal_1159\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;The Portal&#8221;<\/a> by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Little_Glass_Men\/\" target=\"_blank\">Little Glass\u00a0Men<\/a>. <object width=\"300\" height=\"50\"><param name=\"movie\" value=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/swf\/trackplayer.swf\" \/><param name=\"flashvars\" value=\"track=http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/services\/playlists\/embed\/track\/115348.xml\" \/><param name=\"allowscriptaccess\" value=\"sameDomain\" \/><embed type=\"application\/x-shockwave-flash\" src=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/swf\/trackplayer.swf\" width=\"300\" height=\"50\" flashvars=\"track=http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/services\/playlists\/embed\/track\/115348.xml\" allowscriptaccess=\"sameDomain\" \/><\/object><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Bonus:\u00a0<strong>An animal who wants to be eaten<\/strong>, from <em>The Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide to the Galaxy<\/em> BBC series (from the book <em>The Restaurant at the End of the Universe<\/em>):<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/h4GAuuBbb3w\" width=\"420\" height=\"315\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>When a human suffers, we can think of how at least some suffering may be good for him or her. Perhaps suffering is the best way to develop virtues like perseverance and compassion. But what about animals?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":35464,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,64,8,9,57],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-35460","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-evil","category-linkage","category-philosophy","category-podcast"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35460","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=35460"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35460\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37363,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35460\/revisions\/37363"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/35464"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=35460"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=35460"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=35460"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}