{"id":35951,"date":"2015-08-08T13:34:24","date_gmt":"2015-08-08T17:34:24","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=35951"},"modified":"2015-08-08T13:34:24","modified_gmt":"2015-08-08T17:34:24","slug":"on-a-rebuttal-to-my-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament-part-4","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/on-a-rebuttal-to-my-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament-part-4\/","title":{"rendered":"On a Rebuttal to my &#8220;How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament&#8221; &#8211; Part 4"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>This <a href=\"http:\/\/trinitynotes.blogspot.com\/2014\/09\/do-trinitarian-theories-conflict-with.html\" target=\"_blank\">reply of his<\/a>, honestly, is too danged long, <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=on+a+rebuttal+to+my+how+trinity+theories+conflict\" target=\"_blank\">as is this series<\/a>. Future critiquers &#8211; remember, brevity is the soul of wit. But here is part 4 of 5. I&#8217;m going to skip a few tangents. Picking up his critique,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8230;irrespective of whether the doctrine of the Trinity is true, it&#8217;s <strong>not formally\u00a0contradictory<\/strong>.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Depends on the version, but my post doesn&#8217;t anywhere claim that &#8220;the&#8221; doctrine is self-contradictory, so the point is not relevant here.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>ii. There&#8217;s<strong> biblical data supporting<\/strong> (or at least consistent with) Trinitarian theology<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Various elements, of various theories, yes, as some trinitanians think it is part of their view <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\">that the Father is God, our premise U2<\/a> that we&#8217;ve been discussing. But again, not relevant to the present dispute.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>iii. The conclusion of U3 doesn&#8217;t take into <strong>full consideration<\/strong> both the Biblical data and the theological concept of what Trinitarianism entails.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>All that&#8217;s relevant about U3 here is that it follows logically from T1 and U2. <em>If<\/em> they&#8217;re true, then so is U3. Being a mere claim and not a person, U3 doesn&#8217;t need to take anything into consideration at all! \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" size-full wp-image-35989 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/mountain-e1439054903154.jpg\" alt=\"mountain\" width=\"500\" height=\"301\" \/>There is<strong> a mountain of Biblical evidence<\/strong> pointing toward something like the Trinity &#8230;The doctrine of the Trinity is based the following premises.<\/p>\n<p>P1 There is one God (Jehovah\/Yahweh)<br \/>\nP2 The Father is a person<br \/>\nP3 The Son is a person<br \/>\nP4 The Holy Spirit is a person<br \/>\nP5 The Father is Fully Divine<br \/>\nP6 The Son is Fully Divine<br \/>\nP7 The Holy Spirit is Fully Divine<br \/>\nP8 The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit<br \/>\nP9 The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit<br \/>\nP10 The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son<br \/>\nP11 To be Fully Divine is to possess the attributes of God and therefore be God<\/p>\n<p>Each premise can be backed up by multiple Scripture passages. Therefore, something like the Trinity would seem to be true.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Much could be said <strong>about this. Briefly<\/strong>,<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Yes to P1<\/strong>. Notice the personal name &#8211; this one god is a self. It&#8217;s the self the NT calls our and Jesus&#8217;s &#8220;Father.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>P2-P3 are everywhere assumed in the Bible, <em>if<\/em> by &#8220;person&#8221; you mean self. (And I don&#8217;t think you do!) The Father is one &#8220;he&#8221; and the Son is another. They talk to one another, cooperate. And Jesus obeys the Father. They love one another.<\/li>\n<li><strong>P5 entails my premise U2<\/strong>. There&#8217;s only one god, so any &#8220;fully divine&#8221; being just is (is = to) that one god.<\/li>\n<li><strong>P4 is nowhere <em>clearly<\/em> asserted or implied<\/strong> in the Bible, if by &#8220;person&#8221; you mean a self other than, in addition to, the Father and the Son. Christians were still arguing this when the year 400 rolled around. We&#8217;re <em>still<\/em> arguing about it.\u00a0In my view (see <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-25-a-conversation-with-pastor-sean-finnegan-about-the-holy-spirit-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a> and <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-26-a-conversation-with-pastor-sean-finnegan-about-the-holy-spirit-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a>) <strong>&#8220;the holy spirit&#8221; can refer to<\/strong> either the Father, the Son, or to a power of the Father, or to an exercise thereof. So I think P7-P10 are very ambiguous. They&#8217;re ill-formed, assuming as they do that &#8220;the holy spirit&#8221; and such expressions in the Bible have but one meaning.<\/li>\n<li>P11 &#8211; yep. There&#8217;s one god. Any <strong>&#8220;fully divine&#8221; being<\/strong> will be none other than (which is to say, numerically identical to) him &#8211; to God, aka the Father.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>A typical apologist just points at a list like this and says, <strong>&#8220;See &#8211; Trinity!&#8221;<\/strong> But I think you know that this group of claims doesn&#8217;t clearly point to any precise Trinity theory. <strong>I don&#8217;t see, in particular, how you get your one-self view to fit<\/strong> with these claims. Take the Father and Son. If they&#8217;re not identical (P8), this is to say that they&#8217;re not the same being. Well then, they&#8217;re not the same god. If both are gods, then we&#8217;ve just contradicted monotheism. If one only is a god, surely that&#8217;s the Father. Jesus is <em>the Son of<\/em> God.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>[Dale:] And in almost all cases, \u201cGod\u201d (\u201cour God,\u201d \u201cmy God\u201d etc.) is supposed to refer to this same one. Particularly striking are <strong>the greetings in Paul\u2019s letters<\/strong> (all of them, with the possible exception of Colossians) \u2013 he sends them blessings from \u201cGod our Father\u201d or \u201cour God and Father\u201d, as well as from Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>[Annoyed:] &#8220;As well as from Jesus.&#8221; <strong>Often, Jesus said to be the source<\/strong> of the divine blessing of mercy and grace <strong>along with the Father<\/strong>. Why do this if there is not a close association between the God and Jesus? As if they are equally the source of grace and mercy. Almost as if they are equals (whch Trinitarians would agree with).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-35953\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Christmas-card-from-the-Obamas.jpg\" alt=\"Christmas card from the Obamas\" width=\"324\" height=\"324\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Christmas-card-from-the-Obamas.jpg 324w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Christmas-card-from-the-Obamas-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Christmas-card-from-the-Obamas-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Christmas-card-from-the-Obamas-90x90.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 324px) 100vw, 324px\" \/>Annoyed, imagine that you made a campaign contribution, and consequently, you get <strong>a Christmas card from Barack and Michelle<\/strong>. It reads,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Merry Christmas from the President, Barack, and from Michelle.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Does this so much as hint that she is equal to him in terms of power or office, or that she too is president? Of course not, even though\u00a0both are in a sense the source of &#8220;presidential&#8221; Christmas wishes. Not only does it not suggest that they&#8217;re equal, it presupposes that they&#8217;re unequal &#8211; we all know there&#8217;s just one president, and the card tells us this is Barack, and so not Michelle.<\/p>\n<p><em>Next time: some triad-ish NT passages and other famous disputed texts.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This reply of his, honestly, is too danged long, as is this series. Future critiquers &#8211; remember, brevity is the soul of wit. But here is part 4 of 5. I&#8217;m going to skip a few tangents. Picking up his critique, &#8230;irrespective of whether the doctrine of the Trinity is true, it&#8217;s not formally\u00a0contradictory. Depends&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/on-a-rebuttal-to-my-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament-part-4\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">On a Rebuttal to my &#8220;How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament&#8221; &#8211; Part 4<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":35953,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,38,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-35951","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-monotheism","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35951","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=35951"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35951\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":35992,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/35951\/revisions\/35992"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/35953"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=35951"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=35951"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=35951"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}