{"id":36505,"date":"2015-11-16T16:26:16","date_gmt":"2015-11-16T21:26:16","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=36505"},"modified":"2025-02-22T13:15:21","modified_gmt":"2025-02-22T19:15:21","slug":"podcast-113-the-council-at-antioch-in-341","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-113-the-council-at-antioch-in-341\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 113 &#8211; the council at Antioch in 341"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_7043\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-36505-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities113.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities113.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities113.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities113.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=36505-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities113.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities113.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Antioch-341.png\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-36508\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Antioch-341.png\" alt=\"Antioch 341\" width=\"448\" height=\"238\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Antioch-341.png 448w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Antioch-341-300x159.png 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Antioch-341-420x223.png 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Antioch-341-90x48.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 448px) 100vw, 448px\" \/><\/a><strong>What happened after the famous <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">council at Nicea in 325<\/a>?<\/strong> Was there rejoicing and peace, now that the &#8220;Arian&#8221; controversy had been definitively settled?<\/p>\n<p>Sadly, no. At first, there was seemingly <strong>a lull in the storm<\/strong>, during which catholics neither rallied for or against the creed and its <strong>novel language<\/strong>\u00a0of Father and Son being &#8220;one <em>ousia<\/em>&#8221; and about the latter being &#8220;from the <em>ousia<\/em> of&#8221; the former. Eventually, though, some Christians came to think this new language was unhelpful, while others started to think it was important. In response to some goading by Athanasius and others, <strong>about ninety eastern bishops met in a synod at Antioch in the year 341<\/strong>, the occasion being the dedication of big new church there, attended by their emperor.<\/p>\n<p>Before disbanding, they issued at least two creeds, known to history as the <strong>First Creed<\/strong> for the Council of Antioch, and the more important Second Creed, which came to be known as the<strong> Dedication Creed<\/strong>. These expressed the views of a substantial party of bishops in this era. While disavowing the specific claims of Arius, they also seem to be disavowing the Nicene creed, replacing the controversial claims mentioned above with milder, more widely acceptable ones. Here, Jesus is <strong>not &#8220;true God from true God&#8221; but<\/strong> rather &#8220;God from God.&#8221; They also pushed back against the then new <strong>slander that they were &#8220;Arians,&#8221;<\/strong> i.e. disciples of Arius. For them, the members of the <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-8-trinity-vs-trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">trinity<\/a> are <strong>three beings<\/strong> who are &#8220;one in agreement.&#8221; And the Son they seem to allow to be a creature, however they stress, not on a par with other creatures, not a &#8220;<strong>creature<\/strong>&#8221; in the same sense as others are. In short, it is <strong>an anti-Arius and anti-&#8220;Sabellian&#8221; subordinationist catholic creed<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-36510 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Origen-of-Alexadria.jpg\" alt=\"Origen of Alexadria\" width=\"400\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Origen-of-Alexadria.jpg 400w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Origen-of-Alexadria-200x300.jpg 200w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Origen-of-Alexadria-90x135.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 2 \u2013 the \u201cAthanasian Creed\u201d\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-2-the-athanasian-creed\/\">podcast 2 \u2013 the \u201cAthanasian Creed\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 12 \u2013 the Apostles\u2019 Creed\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-12-the-apostles-creed\/\">podcast 12 \u2013 the Apostles\u2019 Creed<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 29 \u2013 Arius\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-29-arius\/\">podcast 29 \u2013 Arius<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\">podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-31-william-hasker-on-the-arian-controversy\/\">podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.britannica.com\/biography\/Saint-Athanasius\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>Athanasius<\/strong> of Alexandria<\/a> (c. 293-373)<\/li>\n<li>R.P.C. Hanson\u2019s <strong><em><a title=\"Hanson book\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/080103146X\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God<\/a><\/em><\/strong>. The most comprehensive historical account of the whole controversy before and after the council at Nicea.<\/li>\n<li>Richard Rubenstein, <a title=\"Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0156013150\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>When Jesus Became God<\/em><\/a>. A readable popular account of the controversy surrounding Arius, and the 325 council.<\/li>\n<li>Leo Donald Davis, <a title=\"Davis, The First Seven Ecumenical Councils\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0814656161\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology<\/em><\/a>. An excellent, scholarly but readable historical and theological summary.<\/li>\n<li>Tanner, ed. <a title=\"Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils\" href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0878404902\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils<\/em><\/a> \u2013 Not merely the first seven, but all those accepted by Roman Catholics. A valuable resource, with both English translations and the original languages.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0521697506\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-36530 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Cambridge-History-of-Early-Christian-Literature.jpg\" alt=\"Cambridge History of Early Christian Literature\" width=\"400\" height=\"430\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Cambridge-History-of-Early-Christian-Literature.jpg 400w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Cambridge-History-of-Early-Christian-Literature-279x300.jpg 279w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Cambridge-History-of-Early-Christian-Literature-90x97.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a>Young, Ayres, and Louth (eds.) <strong><em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0521697506\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The Cambridge History of Early Christian Literature<\/a><\/em>.<\/strong> Lots of good stuff in here. In this episode I read and summarized some of Louis Ayres&#8217;s chapter 38 &#8220;Articulating Identity.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/philo\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Philo of Alexandria<\/a><\/li>\n<li>podcasts dealing with <strong>2nd c. &#8220;logos&#8221; theories\u00a0<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 76 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 3\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-76-justin-martyrs-dialogue-with-trypho-part-3\/\">podcast 76 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 3<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 75 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-75-justin-martyrs-dialogue-with-trypho-part-2\/\">podcast 75 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 74 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-74-justin-martyrs-dialogue-with-trypho-part-1\/\">podcast 74 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 73 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 3\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-73-is-proverbs-8-about-jesus-part-3\/\">podcast 73 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 3<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 72 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-72-is-proverbs-8-about-jesus-part-2\/\">podcast 72 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 71 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-71-proverbs-8-jesus-part-1\/\">podcast 71 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><span style=\"line-height: 1.5;\"><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-24-how-to-be-a-monotheistic-trinitarian\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">podcast 24 &#8211; How to be a monotheistic trinitarian<\/a><\/span><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-11-tertullian-the-unitarian\/\">podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=origen\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">posts @ trinities on Origen of Alexandria<\/a><\/li>\n<li>2 recent posts on <strong>what &#8220;same <em>ousia<\/em>&#8221; might have meant<\/strong> to the 325 council\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-6-same-ousia-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #6 \u201csame ousia\u201d \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-6-same-ousia-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #6 \u201csame ousia\u201d \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is <strong>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Doctor_Turtle\/~\/You_Um_Ill_Ah\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">You Um, I&#8217;ll Ah<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong> by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Doctor_Turtle\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Doctor Turtle<\/a>. <object width=\"300\" height=\"50\"><param name=\"movie\" value=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/swf\/trackplayer.swf\" \/><param name=\"flashvars\" value=\"track=https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/services\/playlists\/embed\/track\/127796.xml\" \/><param name=\"allowscriptaccess\" value=\"sameDomain\" \/><embed type=\"application\/x-shockwave-flash\" src=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/swf\/trackplayer.swf\" width=\"300\" height=\"50\" flashvars=\"track=https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/services\/playlists\/embed\/track\/127796.xml\" allowscriptaccess=\"sameDomain\" \/><\/object><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>What happened after the famous council at Nicea in 325? Was there rejoicing and peace, now that the &#8220;Arian&#8221; controversy had been definitively settled? Sadly, no.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":36508,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[58,4,14,57,7,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-36505","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-creeds","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-podcast","category-quotes","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36505","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=36505"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36505\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44868,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36505\/revisions\/44868"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/36508"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=36505"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=36505"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=36505"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}