{"id":36618,"date":"2015-12-14T15:05:55","date_gmt":"2015-12-14T20:05:55","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=36618"},"modified":"2016-03-16T20:44:24","modified_gmt":"2016-03-17T00:44:24","slug":"podcast-117-the-son-of-god-1-dr-lee-ironss-trinitarian-view-of-jesus","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-117-the-son-of-god-1-dr-lee-ironss-trinitarian-view-of-jesus\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 117 &#8211; The Son of God 1 &#8211; Dr. Lee Irons&#8217;s trinitarian view of Jesus"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5950\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-36618-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities117.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities117.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities117.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities117.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=36618-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities117.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities117.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/1498224261\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-36620 size-full\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-son-of-god-three-views.jpg\" alt=\"the son of god three views\" width=\"395\" height=\"598\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-son-of-god-three-views.jpg 395w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-son-of-god-three-views-198x300.jpg 198w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-son-of-god-three-views-90x136.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 395px) 100vw, 395px\" \/><\/a>How should Christians understand Jesus, the unique Son of God? The<strong> majority view<\/strong> since about the end of the 4th century has been the trinitarian one, which accepts the results of the councils of <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\" target=\"_blank\">Nicea (325)<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-orthodox-formulas-2-the-council-of-constantinople-381\/\" target=\"_blank\">Constantinople (381)<\/a>, and Chalcedon (451). (Or at least, they think that the Bible teaches what these councils concluded.) This is the view that Jesus is both God and man, the only God-man, one person with both a divine nature and a complete human nature (a rational soul and a human body). Eternally existing as the divine <strong>Logos<\/strong> who is eternally generated from the Father, when the time was right he entered into a mysterious <strong>union with a complete human nature<\/strong>, and has since then been &#8220;human.&#8221; And he is one essence or substance (<em>ousia<\/em>) with the Father, and one of three Persons in the Trinity.<\/p>\n<p>On what have been (since the late 4th. century)\u00a0<strong>minority, unitarian views<\/strong>, the one God is not the Trinity but rather the Father. The views are here named after Christian figures in 4th and 16th-17th c. disputes who rejected the catholic mainstream view described above. The <strong>&#8220;Arian&#8221;<\/strong> holds that Jesus existed before the cosmos, and that God created the cosmos through him. Some such hold that the pre-human Son (Logos) eternally existed, being generated by the Father, while others hold that the Father brought him into being when the time was right to create. On such views Jesus may be divine, but not divine in the sense that he is (or is a &#8220;Person&#8221; within) the one true God. Most typically, the event of the Incarnation is here understood as the famous Athanasius understood it, as the Logos coming to inhabit a human body (and not a body together with a normal human soul). This, it is held, makes the Logos into a real man, Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>On the <strong>&#8220;Socinian&#8221;<\/strong> view, Jesus is God&#8217;s Messiah, and a miraculously conceived human being. He eternally &#8220;pre-existed&#8221; only in God&#8217;s plan or mind or intention, so like all other humans, he came to exist no more than about nine months before his birth. He&#8217;s divine in that he is the unique Son of God, who (empowered by God) does God&#8217;s works and teaches and embodies the greatest revelation of God. He receives worship because he&#8217;s been exalted by his God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>In this first of three interviews, we talk with biblical scholar and Presbyterian elder Dr. Charles\u00a0Lee Irons<\/strong>, who in this book defends the classical catholic trinitarian view described above, interacting with the &#8220;Arian&#8221; and &#8220;Socinian&#8221; views. We focus in particular on the famous first chapter of Paul&#8217;s letter to the Colossians and the coherence of the two natures theory when it comes to the divine Jesus dying and having limited knowledge.<\/p>\n<p>In our next two episodes, we&#8217;ll hear from the &#8220;Arian&#8221; and &#8220;Socinian&#8221; authors, respectively Mr. Danny Andre Dixon and <a href=\"https:\/\/dustinmartyr.wordpress.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Dustin Smith<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on\u00a0<a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=7s6ewXK-61A\" target=\"_blank\">YouTube<\/a> (you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>). If you would like to\u00a0<strong>upload audio feedback<\/strong> for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">put the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>You can <strong>support the trinities podcast by ordering anything through Amazon.com<\/strong> after <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/ref=assoc_res_sw_logo?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;linkCode=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG\" target=\"_blank\">clicking through one of our links<\/a>. We get a small % of your purchase, even though your price is not increased. (If you see \u201ctrinities\u201d in you\u00a0url while at Amazon, then we\u2019ll get it.)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Dr. Irons&#8217;s website <a href=\"http:\/\/www.upper-register.com\/index.html\" target=\"_blank\">The Upper Register<\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.upper-register.com\/papers\/monogenes.html\" target=\"_blank\">The Eternal Generation of the Son<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.upper-register.com\/papers\/martin_phil2.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">Outline of R. P. Martin&#8217;s book on Philippians 2:5-11<br \/>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-36622\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/lee-irons.jpg\" alt=\"lee irons\" width=\"230\" height=\"175\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/lee-irons.jpg 230w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/lee-irons-90x68.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 230px) 100vw, 230px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/1498224261\" target=\"_blank\"><em>The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus<\/em><\/a><\/strong>, by Charles Lee Irons, Danny Andre Dixon, and Dustin R. Smith.<\/li>\n<li>Anthony Buzzard\n<ul>\n<li>with Charles Bunting, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/s\/ref=assoc_res_sw_view_all?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;link_code=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG&amp;_encoding=UTF-8&amp;field-keywords=The+Trinity%3A+Christianity%27s+self-inflicted+Wound\" target=\"_blank\">The Trinity: Christianity&#8217;s self-inflicted Wound<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/s\/ref=assoc_res_sw_view_all?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;link_code=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG&amp;_encoding=UTF-8&amp;field-keywords=Jesus+was+not+a+Trinitarian\" target=\"_blank\">Jesus was not a Trinitarian<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>Murray Harris, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/s\/ref=assoc_res_sw_view_all?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;link_code=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG&amp;_encoding=UTF-8&amp;field-keywords=Murray+Harris%2C+Jesus+as+God\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Jesus\u00a0as God<\/strong>: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus<\/a> &#8211; <\/em>an evangelical scholar looks at passages mentioned by Dr. Irons, in which, arguably, the Greek <em>theos<\/em> is used to refer to Jesus.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=John+1&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">John 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=1+Corinthians+8&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">1 Corinthians 8<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Colossians+1&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">Colossians 1<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/s\/ref=assoc_res_sw_view_all?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;link_code=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG&amp;_encoding=UTF-8&amp;field-keywords=Murray+Harris%2C+Jesus+as+God\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-36632\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-36632\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/murray-harris-jesus-as-god.jpg\" alt=\"murray harris jesus as god\" width=\"200\" height=\"299\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/murray-harris-jesus-as-god.jpg 200w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/murray-harris-jesus-as-god-90x135.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 200px) 100vw, 200px\" \/><\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>one\u00a0modern unitarian who reads this\u00a0as having to do with Jesus&#8217;s new creation is William Christie, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.lulu.com\/shop\/search.ep?keyWords=dissertations+on+the+unity+of+god&amp;type=\" target=\"_blank\">Dissertations on the Unity of God<\/a><\/em>, pp. \u00a0174ff.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=John+17&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">John 17<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.theopedia.com\/kenosis\" target=\"_blank\">kenosis theory<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li>Stephen T. Davis, &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/oxfordindex.oup.com\/view\/10.1093\/acprof:oso\/9780199583164.003.0006\" target=\"_blank\">The Metaphysics of Kenosis<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.biblestudytools.com\/mark\/13-32-compare.html\" target=\"_blank\">Mark 13:32<\/a><\/li>\n<li>the &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/3604028.htm\" target=\"_blank\">Tome of Leo<\/a>&#8221; of 449<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/acts\/20-28.htm\" target=\"_blank\">Acts 20:28<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Philippians+2&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">Philippians 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong>some relevant trinities posts and podcast episodes:<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/who-should-christians-worship\/\" target=\"_blank\">Who Should Christians Worship?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-16-how-is-jesus-the-one-lord\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 16 \u2013 How is Jesus \u201cthe one Lord\u201d?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-62-dr-dustin-smith-on-the-preexistence-of-jesus-in-the-gospel-of-john\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=modalism\" target=\"_blank\">modalism<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-49-2-interpretations-of-philippians-2-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 49 \u2013 2 interpretations of Philippians 2 \u2013 part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-44-the-spiritual-journey-of-sir-anthony-buzzard\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 44 &#8211; The Spiritual Journey of Sir Anthony Buzzard<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>re: feedback\u00a0on <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-116-george-r-noyess-explanation-of-isaiah-96-and-john-11\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 116<\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=VIoFKPA5lRg\" target=\"_blank\">ISAIAH 9:6 ?Is PRINCE of PEACE a SON of GOD?\u00a0<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.chabad.org\/library\/bible_cdo\/aid\/15932\" target=\"_blank\">Isaiah 9 @ Chabad.org<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/jps\/isaiah\/9.htm\" target=\"_blank\">Isaiah 9 1917 JPS translation<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/isaiah\/9-6.htm\" target=\"_blank\">other translations of Isaiah 9:6<\/a><\/li>\n<li><em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/s\/ref=assoc_res_sw_view_all?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;link_code=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG&amp;_encoding=UTF-8&amp;field-keywords=jewish+study+bible\" target=\"_blank\">The Jewish Study Bible<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>This episode&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<strong><a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Doctor_Turtle\/Jonahs_Message_for_New_York\/lets_just_get_through_christmas\" target=\"_blank\">Let&#8217;s Just Get Through Christmas<\/a><\/strong>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Doctor_Turtle\/\" target=\"_blank\">Doctor Turtle<\/a>. <object width=\"300\" height=\"50\"><param name=\"movie\" value=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/swf\/trackplayer.swf\" \/><param name=\"flashvars\" value=\"track=https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/services\/playlists\/embed\/track\/129077.xml\" \/><param name=\"allowscriptaccess\" value=\"sameDomain\" \/><embed type=\"application\/x-shockwave-flash\" src=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/swf\/trackplayer.swf\" width=\"300\" height=\"50\" flashvars=\"track=https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/services\/playlists\/embed\/track\/129077.xml\" allowscriptaccess=\"sameDomain\" \/><\/object><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr. Lee Irons on his contribution to the new book The Son: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus, interview by Dr. Dale Tuggy for episode 117 of the trinities podcast.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":36620,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,15,58,54,4,33,56,5,20,57,13,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-36618","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-creeds","category-debates","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-incarnation","category-interview","category-modalism","category-mystery","category-podcast","category-theologians","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36618","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=36618"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36618\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":36738,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36618\/revisions\/36738"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/36620"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=36618"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=36618"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=36618"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}