{"id":36638,"date":"2015-12-17T09:58:17","date_gmt":"2015-12-17T14:58:17","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=36638"},"modified":"2019-09-16T21:54:27","modified_gmt":"2019-09-17T01:54:27","slug":"is-god-greater-than-any-man","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/is-god-greater-than-any-man\/","title":{"rendered":"Is God greater than any man?"},"content":{"rendered":"<blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\" data-width=\"550\" data-dnt=\"true\">\n<p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">\u201cGod is greater than man.\u201c Job 33:12. Every man. All men. Everywhere. Beginning to end. Forever.<\/p>\n<p>&mdash; John Piper (@JohnPiper) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/JohnPiper\/status\/677474102232408064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">December 17, 2015<\/a><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n<p>My reply is: let us consider this <strong>inconsistent triad<\/strong>. Just as a matter of logic, not all three can be true &#8211; at least one must be false. But which?<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Jesus is God.<\/li>\n<li>God is greater than any man.<\/li>\n<li>Jesus is a man.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><strong>If you think 1 is a central teaching of the Bible<\/strong>, this puts you in a hard situation. You must deny either 2 or 3. Denying 3 is docetism. Denying 2 seems a radical revision of theology. Dr. Piper emphatically affirms 2 here, and I <em>think<\/em> is assuming 1. Then, <strong>he must deny 3<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Oddly enough, denying 3 is the most traditional, I mean <strong>the most catholic<\/strong> response. For the ancient\/early medieval catholic tradition,<strong> Jesus is not a man, they hold, but is &#8220;man,&#8221;<\/strong> is such that the term &#8220;man&#8221; is predicable of him. Why? Not because he&#8217;s a man, a human self &#8211; that&#8217;d result in Nestorianism, since there is already the eternal Logos there &#8211; but rather because the Logos is mysteriously united with a body and a soul (which <em>don&#8217;t<\/em> constitute a man).<\/p>\n<p><strong>But to me, 3 is an essential and explicit New Testament teaching. It&#8217;s 1 vs. 2 then. <\/strong>1 can&#8217;t be true if it&#8217;s read as an identity statement. Why? <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-formulation-of-leibnizs-law-the-indiscernibility-of-identicals\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The indiscernibility of identicals<\/a>, or to put it differently, the distinctness of differents. In the NT and on any unconfused theology, Jesus differs from God in various ways, and vice-versa. So if that&#8217;s what 1 means, than anyone, on biblical grounds, should affirm 2 &amp; 3 and deny 1.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-36648\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Doh.gif\" alt=\"D'oh\" width=\"200\" height=\"200\" \/>Does it help to argue like this?<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Jesus <em>as human<\/em> is less great than God, but Jesus <em>as divine<\/em> is not less great than God.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Not if you&#8217;re aiming to be self-consistent! What Jesus is &#8220;as human&#8221; he is. And what Jesus is &#8220;as divine&#8221; (assuming he&#8217;s divine), he is. So then it follows from this statement that: Jesus is less great than God <em>and<\/em> it is not the case that Jesus is less great than God. D&#8217;oh! Contradiction.<\/p>\n<p><strong>What if 1 just means &#8220;Jesus is divine&#8221;?<\/strong> The resulting triad would not longer be obviously inconsistent. But what if we changed 2 likewise, so,<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Jesus is divine.<\/li>\n<li>Anyone who is divine is greater than any man.<\/li>\n<li>Jesus is a man.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Here the triad is inconsistent again, but it&#8217;s not clear that 2 is true. &#8220;<strong>Divine<\/strong>&#8221; is so flexible, in biblical thought; if <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-59-dr-carl-mosser-on-salvation-as-deification\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">saved humans are divinized<\/a>, 2 is false.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perhaps Dr. Piper means &#8220;<em>mere<\/em> man&#8221; in his tweet<\/strong> &#8211; i.e. a man who doesn&#8217;t also have a divine nature. Well, that can&#8217;t be what <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/job\/33-12.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Job 33:22<\/a> means. But leaving that aside, what about this triad?<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-36644\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/greater-than.jpg\" alt=\"greater than\" width=\"452\" height=\"361\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/greater-than.jpg 452w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/greater-than-300x240.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/greater-than-420x335.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/greater-than-90x72.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 452px) 100vw, 452px\" \/><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Jesus is God.<\/li>\n<li>God is greater than any <em>mere<\/em> man.<\/li>\n<li>Jesus is a <em>mere<\/em> man.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Here the triad is inconsistent, but I assume Dr. Piper would deny 3.<\/p>\n<p><strong>But compare this 2 with the first 2 above. Is either more obviously true<\/strong> than the other? I don&#8217;t think so!<\/p>\n<p>Consider a &#8220;<strong>mere man<\/strong>.&#8221; Could such a being be <strong>omniscient<\/strong>? Maybe; at least, it&#8217;s hard to see any contradiction in the idea of an omniscient man who lacks a divine nature. But could a &#8220;mere man&#8221; be <strong><em>essentially<\/em> omniscient<\/strong>? It would seem not. As a mere man, it is <em>possible<\/em> that he be subject to some level of ignorance, as all of us are.<\/p>\n<p>Of course any &#8220;mere man&#8221; is also a man. So about the <strong>more general concept of a man<\/strong>, could a man be <strong><em>essentially<\/em><\/strong> omniscient, so that it&#8217;s not possible that there&#8217;s some truth he doesn&#8217;t know? It would seem not. Any man, as such, is <em>possibly<\/em> in an embodied human situation like yours and mine. And this puts limits on what we know. e.g. I have no idea what&#8217;s happening in Tokyo right now. Jesus, clearly, was somewhat limited in knowledge too; that&#8217;s why he <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/luke\/8-45.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">asked people questions in order to find out what was going on<\/a>, and of course on at least one occasion he<a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/mark\/13-32.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"> directly asserted ignorance<\/a>. So his case supports rather than refutes the claim that no human can be essentially omniscient.<\/p>\n<p>Other supports for either the first or the last 2 above: God&#8217;s essential properties of aseity, necessary existence, omnipotence, inability to be tempted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Back to our first, obviously inconsistent triad. Why not just say it&#8217;s a mystery?<\/strong> That it seems that all three can&#8217;t be true, but&#8230; phooey on logic &#8211; <em>I<\/em> have faith and humility.<\/p>\n<p>Well, no need to insult logic. The thing is that a Christian arguably has stronger grounds in scripture and reason to accept 2 and 3 than she does to accept 1. If this is so, then faith and humility do <em>not<\/em> demand affirming all three. The <strong>arguments in support of &#8220;Jesus is God&#8221;<\/strong> in the sense that &#8220;Jesus just is (is numerically identical with) God&#8221; <a href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/trinity-history.html#NewTes\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">are all sophistical<\/a>. All are either invalid or are valid with a false premise. Only a gross overestimation of their power makes an appeal to mystery here seem non-foolish.<\/p>\n<p>Did Jesus assert or imply or presuppose that he &#8220;had a divine nature,&#8221; or do something which he couldn&#8217;t have do unless he had a divine nature (and so was not a &#8220;mere man&#8221;)? The catholic traditions say &#8220;yes&#8221; to all of these. I don&#8217;t think any NT author would agree. But that&#8217;s another argument for another time.<\/p>\n<p>In sum, <strong>I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Piper&#8217;s tweet<\/strong>. And let&#8217;s remember the testimony of that most special man, our Lord, <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/1_timothy\/2-5.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">the unique mediator between God and humans<\/a>:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-36646\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-father-is-greater-than-jesus.jpg\" alt=\"the father is greater than jesus\" width=\"213\" height=\"213\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-father-is-greater-than-jesus.jpg 213w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-father-is-greater-than-jesus-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/the-father-is-greater-than-jesus-90x90.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 213px) 100vw, 213px\" \/><\/p>\n<blockquote><p>If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (<a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/14-28.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">John 14:28<\/a>)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>As a Jew, of course Jesus assumed, and didn&#8217;t think it needed to be said that God is greater than all <em>other<\/em> people. And if you&#8217;re wondering if Jesus is supposed to be an exception &#8211; well, divine providence saw to it that you would have enough information to not make that mistake. (Of course, not that everyone avails himself of it!)<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cGod is greater than man.\u201c Job 33:12. Every man. All men. Everywhere. Beginning to end. Forever. &mdash; John Piper (@JohnPiper) December 17, 2015 My reply is: let us consider this inconsistent triad. Just as a matter of logic, not all three can be true &#8211; at least one must be false. But which? Jesus is&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/is-god-greater-than-any-man\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Is God greater than any man?<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":36644,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,15,6,20,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-36638","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-christology","category-complaints","category-mystery","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36638","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=36638"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36638\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41588,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36638\/revisions\/41588"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/36644"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=36638"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=36638"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=36638"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}