{"id":37007,"date":"2016-02-10T10:15:26","date_gmt":"2016-02-10T15:15:26","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=37007"},"modified":"2019-10-27T11:53:56","modified_gmt":"2019-10-27T16:53:56","slug":"a-case-of-progressive-revelation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-case-of-progressive-revelation\/","title":{"rendered":"a case of progressive revelation"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"storytime\"Thanks to Dr. James Anderson for his further reply<\/a> to my reply<\/a> to his initial answer<\/a> to the Challenge<\/a> to “Jesus is God” apologists. His new post does clarify his position for me. Perhaps later, I’ll reply more straightforwardly, but for now… story time! The story concerns premise 4 of the Challenge…<\/em><\/p>\n

T<\/span>he new kid<\/strong> at the high school seemed somehow different. \u201cHe seems… <\/span>spiritual<\/span><\/i>,\u201d mused Del.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI wonder if he\u2019s a Christian,\u201d wondered Jimmy.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cLet\u2019s ask him.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Jimmy and Del walked towards the school cafeteria, resolved to talk to the new kid, and maybe even engage in a little lunchtime evangelism. The sat down at his table and introduced themselves.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cMy name\u2019s Chad. Where\u2019m I from? Oh, you\u2019ve probably never heard of it.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cJimmy and I noticed the other day that you bowed your head for a moment before eating lunch. Were you praying? Are you a Christian? Jimmy and I are.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI was praying, yes,\u201d answered Chad. But I\u2019m not a Christian. I\u2019m a Quatronian<\/strong>.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Jimmy and Del looked at each other.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cProbably you haven\u2019t heard of this religion. It\u2019s fairly new, and there aren\u2019t very many of us. We worship the one true god, Quatro<\/strong>.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cOh,\u201d said Jimmy, as he struggled to process this news. \u201cWho is this Quatro exactly? Tell us more.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\"paperback\u201cHe\u2019s the one true God. He sent us the prophet Nugai<\/strong>, and inspired our sacred book, the <\/span>Waeittiz<\/i><\/strong>, which was written by Nugai and some of our other leaders.\u201d He pulled out a well-worn paperback from his backpack and held it out. Jimmy took it and examined the back cover.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWell I guess we disagree about God then,\u201d suggested Del. \u201cJim and I believe in the god of the Bible.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYou mean Yahweh?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes,\u201d piped Jimmy, looking up from the book. <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cOh, I don\u2019t know how much we disagree about. You see, Quatro and Yahweh are the same god.<\/strong> Our religions differ is some ways, yes, but we worship the same god.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cPerhaps this is what your holy book <\/span>says<\/span><\/i>, but we\u2019ll have disagree about that,\u201d suggested Del. <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI hope not,\u201d replied Chad. Jim sat up straight, excited. This was going to be interesting. He handed back the book. <\/span><\/p>\n

Del shifted to lawyer mode. \u201cDid this \u2018Quatro\u2019 befriend Abraham<\/strong>, and later send the prophet Moses to the descendants of Abraham?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cAbsolutely not. Quatronian theology positively denies that Quatro ever did any such things.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cDid Quatro send his only Son to us, to teach us about himself, and to die for the sins of the human race?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cAbsolutely not. <\/span>Waeittiz <\/span><\/i>chapter 17 quotes Quatro as saying \u201cI am the Son of no one, nor do I have a Son to send, nor is there any \u2018Son\u2019 within me. Anyone who says that are or have a Son – that\u2019s not me!\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cOK,\u201d pressed Del, \u201c<\/span>our<\/span><\/i> god revealed himself to Abraham, sent Moses, and then later sent us his Son. So clearly, we\u2019re not talking about the same god here.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNot the same <\/span>being<\/span><\/i>, no but the same <\/span>god<\/span><\/i>, yes!\u201d insisted Chad, waving the book. Del looked confused, but remained silent. Jim came to his rescue,<\/span><\/p>\n

\"pantheon\"\u201cChad, how do we know that this \u2018Quatro\u2019 is even supposed to be divine?<\/strong> Del and I have read in various mythologies about so-called \u2018gods\u2019 who are created, who die, and who do terrible deeds like deception, murder, and rape.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cOh, Quatro isn\u2019t like <\/span>that<\/span><\/i>. He has all the divine qualities.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIs he eternal?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cUncreated creator?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cPerfect in every way? Even morally?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes!\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cAnd yet, he <\/span>didn\u2019t<\/span><\/i> send Moses and Jesus?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNo.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWell, we Christians believe there\u2019s only one god. You\u2019re alleging that there\u2019s another one, but that can\u2019t be, in our view.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNo, Quatro is a different <\/span>being <\/span><\/i>than Yahweh – yes, the differences we\u2019ve discussed <\/span>prove <\/span><\/i>that. But he\u2019s the same <\/span>god <\/span><\/i>as Yahweh.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Portrait_of_two_young_women\"\u201cThat\u2019s absurd,\u201d declared Del. \u201cAny god <\/strong><\/span>just<\/i><\/strong> is a certain being!<\/strong> If we\u2019re talking about different beings, we\u2019re talking about different gods. Suppose we learn that in your country every marriage is monogamous, and then we find out that your dad is married, and has a wife named Chrissy. And we also learn that he has a wife named Sissy. We know then, than his one wife is called both \u2018Chrissy\u2019 and \u2018Sissy.<\/strong>\u2019\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNo you don\u2019t!\u201d objected Chad. \u201cWhat you <\/span>know <\/span><\/i>is that my dad has<\/span> one wife<\/span><\/i>. But for all you know, Chrissy and Sissy are the same <\/span>wife<\/span><\/i>, but different <\/span>women<\/span><\/i>.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut any wife <\/span>just is<\/span><\/i> a certain woman,\u201d shot Del.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s what <\/span>you <\/span><\/i>say! But I don\u2019t have to accept your controversial theories about wives and women.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cTheories?!\u201d Del\u2019s mouth hung open and he was red in the face. <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cHe\u2019s right, you know,\u201d said Jimmy. \u201cI mean, he\u2019s right about the god case, whether or not he\u2019s right about the wife case.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cJimmy, how can you say that?\u201d\"Gumbyleaning2\"<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cDel, you need to read some more philosophy. There are philosophers who think that a lump of clay and a statue made of it are different form-matter compounds, but the same material object.<\/strong>\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWell, I think they\u2019re wrong.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cPerhaps they are. But this calls into question the general principle<\/strong> that if some x and y are the same F, then x is an F, y is an F, and x just is y.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo?\u201d Del threw up his hands and stared unkindly at his friend. Chad looked on, amused by this discord in the Christian camp.<\/span><\/p>\n

\"mystery\"\u201cThe divine nature, we know, is far, far beyond us.<\/strong> Sure, we know some things about it, like that it includes omniscience, eternality, uncreatedness, and such, but there is far more we don\u2019t know about it. Only a fool would say that he understands God completely.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo how can we rule out<\/strong> that different beings can be the same god?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Del looked distressed, but remained silent.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWe\u2019ve been told that this Quatro is eternal, uncreated, and perfect, and that he\u2019s a god. I don\u2019t suppose we can just assert that he\u2019s a fiction and leave it at that. It sounds like he <\/span>could be <\/span><\/i>both real and divine. And I take it,\u201d Jimmy looked at Chad, \u201cthat Nugai and others claim they\u2019ve directly experienced the reality of Quatro.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThis is just too much,\u201d whined Del.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNo – hear me out. We\u2019re <\/strong><\/span>Christians<\/i><\/strong>, right? We believe in the Trinity.<\/strong> Father and Son and Spirit – none of these is identical to any other. They differ in various ways, while each being divine. Each is a god – but they\u2019re the <\/span>same <\/span><\/i>god.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWell, that\u2019s what some trinitarians say, but\u2026\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cHear me out,\u201d interrupted Jimmy. \u201cFather, Son, and Spirit are different beings<\/strong> – none just is any other. And yet, they each share the divine essence, which makes them the same god. Now<\/span> for all we know<\/span><\/i>, this Quatro may share that same divine essence, making him that same god<\/strong> too.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut God sent Jesus, while Quatro <\/span>says <\/span><\/i>he did no such thing.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSure, but by \u2018God\u2019 there you mean the Father. Or maybe the Trinity. But anyway, any trinitarian thinks there are differences between the sharers of the divine nature. The Son became incarnate, but the Father and Spirit didn\u2019t. So maybe,\u201d now Jimmy was getting excited, \u201cQuatro just wasn\u2019t involved with Abraham or Moses, and didn\u2019t send Jesus because <\/span>his <\/i><\/strong>mission within the divine economy<\/strong> was different. Each divine Person has his own job. Perhaps Quatro\u2019s job is sending the prophet Nugai, and inspiring the writing of that <\/span>Waeittiz <\/span><\/i>book<\/span>.\u201d<\/span><\/i><\/p>\n

Chad looked pleased. <\/span><\/p>\n

\"four\u201cYou\u2019ve got to be kidding me!\u201d declared Del. \u201cYou just met our new friend here, and just found out about his religion, and you\u2019re willing to consider belief in a Quaternity<\/strong>, with this \u2018Quatro\u2019 as a fourth divine Person?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYou have to admit,\u201d countered Jimmy, \u201cthat the name seems rather providential.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut don\u2019t some argue that there will be <\/span>at most<\/i><\/strong> three<\/strong> divine persons, as three are all that are required for being perfectly loving?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes, the famous analytic theologian Richard Swinburne<\/strong> argues that. But honestly, he\u2019s putting too much trust in human speculations, human intuitions. What we know is this: the Bible tells us about three divine Persons, three beings within the Godhead. It never tells that that there are only<\/em> three, at most three, or no more that three, does it?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI don\u2019t recall that it does.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cRight. And recall again that God\u2019s nature is profoundly mysterious; there is just so much about God that we don\u2019t know.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s what we say too,\u201d chimed Chad. <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWe can\u2019t rule out, then, that this is one of those things previously unknown.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cI just can\u2019t take this seriously,\u201d insisted Del. \u201cWhen I find out that Sissy and Chrissy are different women, it just follows from that that they\u2019re not the same wife. And when I found out that Yahweh and Quatro are different beings, it just follows that they\u2019re not the same god.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo <\/span>you <\/span><\/i>say!\u201d shot Jimmy. <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI\u2019m just applying common sense here.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYou\u2019re applying your speculative theories about god here. Pardon me<\/em> if I don\u2019t claim to completely understand the divine nature!\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\"out\u201cJimmy, you\u2019re a smart guy, and I respect your knowledge of Bible and theology. You\u2019re a good friend. Forgive me, but, it seems to me like<\/span> you\u2019re <\/i><\/strong>way out on the end of a theoretical limb<\/strong>, not me. The point about gods seems obvious. It seems obvious without any speculative theories about statues or the divine nature. Different being, different god! But <\/span>you <\/span><\/i>doubt it. Why? Because a few philosophers have questioned a general principle that being the same some-sort-of-thing requires being the same being. But don\u2019t you agree with me about the Chrissy and Sissy case?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cYes.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo then, only in the case of God, you\u2019re open-minded, allowing that maybe different beings can be the same god. That\u2019s why when you find out that Quatro, assuming he\u2019s real, differs from Yahweh, and so is not numerically the same as Yahweh, still you\u2019re open to their being the same god.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\"trinity\u201cYes. Bro, do you even Trinity?<\/strong>\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut Jimmy, not all trinitarian theologians say that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the same god. Some think that neither<\/em> is a god, but each is a part of, or anyhow mysteriously within the one god, which is the triune God.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cGet out.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWho\u2019s your favorite apologist?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBill Craig.<\/strong>\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s what <\/span>he <\/span><\/i>thinks! As <\/span>he <\/span><\/i>interprets the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Spirit are divine, but not in the sense that implies being a god. Only the Trinity can be divine in <\/span>that <\/span><\/i>way.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cEven good apologists make mistakes.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut it\u2019s not just him. I think Swinburne would agree too<\/strong>, that the Father, Son, and Spirit are not the same god, though each of them, and the Trinity too can be called \u2018God.\u2019\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWhat can I say? Some people trust too much in their own speculations. Sorry, but you\u2019re one of those people. Me, I go by the Bible.<\/strong> Father, Son, and Spirit are all divine – yes, in the way that means being a god. But there\u2019s only one god. So, they must be the same god. But this doesn\u2019t rule out that this Quatro too is that same god.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI\u2019m pretty sure,\u201d Del thought out loud, \u201cthat some theologians would deny that the Persons of the Trinity are different beings\u2026\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWell, there\u2019s no helping them. It\u2019s obvious that ones who differ, like the Father and Son do, are not one and the same being.\u201d Chad nodded.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cRight. But the Bible doesn\u2019t say that does it?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIt doesn\u2019t need to; it\u2019s something we all know. It\u2019s part of common sense.<\/strong>\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut so is this claim: different beings are not the same god.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\"Facepalm3\"Jimmy thrust his finger at Del. \u201cNo, it\u2019s not!\u201d Chad again nodded. \u201cAs I mentioned, some philosophers deny it<\/strong>.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut some philosophers deny that change is real, or that human persons exist, or that any event causes any other event.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cDel, I know that, but in this<\/em> case divine revelation makes us question<\/strong> what seems obvious to us.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cRight,\u201d agreed Chad.<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBut divine revelation is one thing, and your views on the Trinity are another.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cDivine revelation <\/span>plainly says<\/span><\/i> that Jesus and his Father are the same god. \u2018The Father and I are one<\/strong>.\u2019\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Chad added,\u201cI don\u2019t know about the Bible, but the <\/span>Waeittiz <\/span><\/i>says that Quatro and Yahweh are the same god.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s why I\u2019m so intrigued,\u201d replied Jimmy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Eventually Jimmy and Chad entered into a long-term study of the <\/strong><\/span>Waeittiz<\/strong>. <\/span><\/i>Jimmy became convinced that Quatro was indeed the same god as Yahweh. This fourth divine Person, he believed, had a complementary mission, which the <\/span>Waeittiz <\/span><\/i>explained fairly clearly, and Nugai had truly revealed new things about God that Jesus had never mentioned. For his part Del remained recalcitrant, insisting that Yahweh and Quatro just couldn\u2019t be the same god<\/strong>, even when Jimmy teased him with Shakespeare. \u201cThere are more divine Persons, Del, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Thanks to Dr. James Anderson for his further reply to my reply to his initial answer to the Challenge to “Jesus is God” apologists. His new post does clarify his position for me. Perhaps later, I’ll reply more straightforwardly, but for now… story time! The story concerns premise 4 of the Challenge… The new kid at… Read More »a case of progressive revelation<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":37013,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"default","neve_meta_container":"default","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"off","neve_meta_content_width":70,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"off","neve_meta_disable_footer":"off","neve_meta_disable_title":"off","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,6,9,36],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-37007","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-complaints","category-philosophy","category-stories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37007","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=37007"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37007\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41905,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37007\/revisions\/41905"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/37013"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=37007"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=37007"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=37007"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}