{"id":37086,"date":"2016-02-29T14:38:07","date_gmt":"2016-02-29T19:38:07","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=37086"},"modified":"2016-03-22T08:10:48","modified_gmt":"2016-03-22T12:10:48","slug":"podcast-128-ehrman-and-bird-on-how-jesus-became-god-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-128-ehrman-and-bird-on-how-jesus-became-god-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 128 &#8211; Ehrman and Bird on How Jesus Became God &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8743\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-37086-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities128.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities128.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities128.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities128.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=37086-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities128.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities128.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-37087\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-Bird-in-debate.png\" alt=\"Ehrman Bird in debate\" width=\"500\" height=\"327\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-Bird-in-debate.png 500w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-Bird-in-debate-300x196.png 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-Bird-in-debate-420x275.png 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-Bird-in-debate-460x301.png 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-Bird-in-debate-90x59.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 500px) 100vw, 500px\" \/>Did the earliest Christians, and so the earliest gospel (Mark), teach <strong>that Jesus was a man, and not a God-man<\/strong>, who was in a sense divinized by God, at his baptism or at his post-resurrection exaltation? Did this message transmogrify into the view that <strong>&#8220;Jesus is God&#8221;<\/strong> by the time the fourth gospel (John) was written, around the last decade of the first century?<\/p>\n<p>Or have Christians all along thought that Jesus was <strong>divine and human<\/strong>, equal with us in being human, and yet equal with God in his divinity, only changing, over the centuries, in how they expressed this faith?<\/p>\n<p>In this episode <strong>I review the first portion of a recent debate\/discussion between Dr. Bart Ehrman and Dr. Michael Bird<\/strong>, held at the at the 2016 Greer-Heard Point Counter Point Forum in February 12-13, 2016 at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.<\/p>\n<p>I see both as right about some matters and as mistaken about others. I hold that there is\u00a0a third way here, a way that is arguably more charitable to the authors of the gospels. Here&#8217;s <strong>the inconsistent triad<\/strong> I use at the start of this episode to differentiate our views:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>The New Testament gospels agree in their core claims about Jesus and God.<\/li>\n<li>Matthew, Mark, and Luke don\u2019t teach that Jesus is God.<\/li>\n<li>John teaches that Jesus is God.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Dr. Ehrman denies 1. Dr. Bird denies 2. I deny 3. You?<\/p>\n<p>This episode marks the return of my trusty old machine,<strong> the LogicBot 2000<\/strong>, who you may remember from <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-79-dr-john-piper-not-everyone-elect\/\" target=\"_blank\">episode 79<\/a>. He&#8217;s called into service here to separate valid from invalid arguments.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Let us know\u00a0<\/strong>what you think in the comments below, in our\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/trinities\/\" target=\"_blank\">Facebook group<\/a>, \u00a0upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">putting the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/iiqc61IgDqg\" target=\"_blank\">YouTube<\/a><\/strong> (you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>).\u00a0You can <strong>support the trinities podcast by ordering anything through Amazon.com<\/strong> after <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/ref=assoc_res_sw_logo?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;linkCode=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG\" target=\"_blank\">clicking through one of our links<\/a>. We get a small % of your purchase, even though your price is not increased. (If you see \u201ctrinities\u201d in you\u00a0url while at Amazon, then we\u2019ll get it.)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-37089\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bart-Ehrman-in-debate-2016.png\" alt=\"Bart Ehrman in debate, 2016\" width=\"386\" height=\"294\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bart-Ehrman-in-debate-2016.png 400w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bart-Ehrman-in-debate-2016-300x229.png 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bart-Ehrman-in-debate-2016-90x69.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 386px) 100vw, 386px\" \/><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>the official debate video:\u00a0<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=gg4Tc1j4Qwo\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>\u201cHow Did Jesus Become God?\u201d<\/strong> &#8211; Bart Ehrman and Michael Bird in Dialogue + Q&amp;A<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.bartdehrman.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Bart Ehrman<\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/ehrmanblog.org\/jesus-as-god-in-the-synoptics-for-members\/?print=print\" target=\"_blank\">Jesus as God in the Synoptics<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast episode 35 \u2013 Interview with Dr. Bart Ehrman about his How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-35-interview-with-dr-bart-ehrman-about-his-how-jesus-became-god-part-1\/\">podcast episode 35 \u2013 Interview with Dr. Bart Ehrman about his How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast episode 36 \u2013 Interview with Dr. Bart Ehrman about his How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-episode-36-interview-with-dr-bart-ehrman-about-his-how-jesus-became-god-part-2\/\">podcast episode 36 \u2013 Interview with Dr. Bart Ehrman about his How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/euangelion\/michael-birds-cv\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Michael Bird<\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0310519594\" target=\"_blank\">How God Became Jesus<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Dale on John, Mark, God, and Jesus<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/do-the-gospels-disagree-about-jesus-and-god-part-1-three-options\/\" target=\"_blank\">Do the Gospels disagree about Jesus and God? Part 1 \u2013 Three Options<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/do-the-gospels-disagree-about-jesus-and-god-part-2-counting-the-costs\/\" target=\"_blank\">Do the Gospels disagree about Jesus and God? Part 2 \u2013 Counting the Costs<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-70-the-one-god-and-his-son-according-to-john\/\">podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/who-should-christians-worship\/\" target=\"_blank\">Who Should Christians Worship?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-and-his-son-the-logic-of-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\">God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/does-mark-teach-that-jesus-is-god\/\" target=\"_blank\">Does Mark teach that Jesus is God?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/mark-jesus-is-gods-son-the-messiah\/\" target=\"_blank\">Mark: Jesus is God\u2019s Son, the Messiah<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-31-william-hasker-on-the-arian-controversy\/\">podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\">podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 29 \u2013 Arius\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-29-arius\/\">podcast 29 \u2013 Arius<\/a><\/li>\n<li><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-37091\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/an-icon-of-the-apostle-john-sm.jpg\" alt=\"an icon of the apostle john sm\" width=\"375\" height=\"527\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/an-icon-of-the-apostle-john-sm.jpg 400w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/an-icon-of-the-apostle-john-sm-214x300.jpg 214w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/an-icon-of-the-apostle-john-sm-90x126.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 375px) 100vw, 375px\" \/>Acts 13:32-33<\/li>\n<li>John 1\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-71-proverbs-8-jesus-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 71 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 116 \u2013 George R. Noyes\u2019s Explanation of Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-116-george-r-noyess-explanation-of-isaiah-96-and-john-11\/\">podcast 116 \u2013 George R. Noyes\u2019s Explanation of Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.21stcr.org\/multimedia\/artitcles\/john1_1-reader_beware.html\" target=\"_blank\">Sir Anthony Buzzard: &#8220;John 1:1 &#8211; Caveat Lector&#8221;<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=CeURKRIMQKM\" target=\"_blank\">Buzzard and Gill, &#8220;John 1:1-18 explained&#8221;<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>Wolfson, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0674665511\" target=\"_blank\">The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Third Edition<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Trinity,&#8221;<\/a> <em>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#OneSel\" target=\"_blank\">one-self interpretations of catholic Trinity language<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#Mys\" target=\"_blank\">mysterianism<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-11-tertullian-the-unitarian\/\">podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian<\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s<strong> thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/Descent_of_the_Goober_Monster\/Jesse_Spillane_-_Descent_of_the_Goober_Monster_-_13_Call_for_Surrender\" target=\"_blank\">Call for Surrender<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong> by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/\" target=\"_blank\">Jesse Spillane<\/a>. His homepage is\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.jessespillane.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">jessespillane.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this episode I review the first portion of a recent debate\/discussion between Dr. Bart Ehrman and Dr. Michael Bird, held at the at the 2016 Greer-Heard Point Counter Point Forum in February 12-13, 2016 at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":37087,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,16,15,54,14,20,57,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-37086","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-books","category-christology","category-debates","category-history","category-mystery","category-podcast","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37086","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=37086"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37086\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37303,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37086\/revisions\/37303"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/37087"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=37086"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=37086"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=37086"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}