{"id":37132,"date":"2016-03-07T16:11:26","date_gmt":"2016-03-07T21:11:26","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=37132"},"modified":"2016-03-22T08:09:44","modified_gmt":"2016-03-22T12:09:44","slug":"podcast-129-ehrman-and-bird-on-how-jesus-became-god-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-129-ehrman-and-bird-on-how-jesus-became-god-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 129 \u2013 Ehrman and Bird on How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4236\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-37132-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities129.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities129.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities129.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities129.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=37132-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/p\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities129.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities129.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-37136\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-Michael-Bird-in-Feb-2016-in-LA.png\" alt=\"Dr Michael Bird in Feb 2016 in LA\" width=\"378\" height=\"405\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-Michael-Bird-in-Feb-2016-in-LA.png 500w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-Michael-Bird-in-Feb-2016-in-LA-279x300.png 279w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-Michael-Bird-in-Feb-2016-in-LA-420x451.png 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-Michael-Bird-in-Feb-2016-in-LA-460x494.png 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-Michael-Bird-in-Feb-2016-in-LA-90x97.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 378px) 100vw, 378px\" \/>Does chapter one of the earliest gospel <strong>(Mark) portray Jesus as the God of Israel<\/strong>, as Yahweh himself? This is part of what Dr. Michael Bird argues in this second half of the debate.<\/p>\n<p>For his part, <strong>Dr. Bart Ehrman counters<\/strong> that many ancient Jewish sources feature deified humans, and so it is plausible that even though the synoptic gospels (Mt, Mk, Lk) don&#8217;t say that Jesus is God, the slightly later gospel according to John does teach that.<\/p>\n<p>Do the four New Testament gospels then clash about Jesus and God (as Dr. Ehman argues), or do they all in fact teach that Jesus is God (as Dr. Bird argues).\u00a0Or, as I argue, do none of the four New Testament gospels teach that Jesus is God himself, or that he&#8217;s divine in the way that Yahweh is divine?<\/p>\n<p>Here&#8217;s <strong>the argument I discuss at around 22:30<\/strong>, when I say that &#8220;things that are identical to the same thing are identical to each other.&#8221;<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>f= g<\/li>\n<li>j = g<\/li>\n<li>g = f (1, reflexivity of =)<\/li>\n<li>j = f (2, 3, transitivity of =)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>Dr. Bird seems to be suggesting that the gospels teach both 1 &amp; 2. But that would me that they imply 4 as well, which is unacceptable! (In all of the NT, Jesus and the Father differ, and so by the indiscernibility of identicals, they must be two.) <strong>I admit this argument is valid, but I affirm 1 and deny 2<\/strong>, so I hold it to be unsound. You?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Let us know\u00a0<\/strong>what you think in the comments below, in our\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/trinities\/\" target=\"_blank\">Facebook group<\/a>, \u00a0upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast,\u00a0<a title=\"upload audio feedback for the trinities podcast here\" href=\"http:\/\/www.mediafire.com\/filedrop\/filedrop_hosted.php?drop=96df5ea43b9b7c6582cb95b8c5a7259d7cd8109e0cd009d4a5ecd099cc7e64fb\" target=\"_blank\">putting the audio file here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>You can also <strong>listen t<\/strong><strong>o this episode on<\/strong>\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast @ stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=54067&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0or\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities @ itunes\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/id690304581?mt=2&amp;uo=4&amp;at=11l5XS\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0(please subscribe, rate, and review<\/strong>\u00a0us in either or both \u2013 <strong><a title=\"how to rate us at iTunes and Stitcher\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/review\/\" target=\"_blank\">directions here<\/a><\/strong>). It is also available on\u00a0<strong><a title=\"trinities podcast youtube playlist\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/TSdrvdOyCaQ\" target=\"_blank\">YouTube<\/a><\/strong> (you can\u00a0<a title=\"youtube subscription link\" href=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/khanpadawan?sub_confirmation=1\" target=\"_blank\">subscribe here<\/a>).\u00a0You can <strong>support the trinities podcast by ordering anything through Amazon.com<\/strong> after <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/ref=assoc_res_sw_logo?tag=trinitiesorg-20&amp;linkCode=w14&amp;linkID=ISZSX35I27NLT3KG\" target=\"_blank\">clicking through one of our links<\/a>. We get a small % of your purchase, even though your price is not increased. (If you see \u201ctrinities\u201d in you\u00a0url while at Amazon, then we\u2019ll get it.)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>the official debate video:\u00a0<\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=gg4Tc1j4Qwo\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>\u201cHow Did Jesus Become God?\u201d<\/strong> \u2013 Bart Ehrman and Michael Bird in Dialogue + Q&amp;A<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-37137 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate.png\" alt=\"Ehrman and Bird 2016 debate\" width=\"454\" height=\"334\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate.png 904w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate-300x221.png 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate-768x566.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate-420x309.png 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate-460x339.png 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ehrman-and-Bird-2016-debate-90x66.png 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 454px) 100vw, 454px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.greerheard.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">The Greer-Heard Point-Counterpoint Forum<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.bartdehrman.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Bart Ehrman<\/a>,<\/strong><em> <a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0061778184\" target=\"_blank\">How Jesus Became God<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.patheos.com\/blogs\/euangelion\/michael-birds-cv\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Michael Bird<\/a>, <\/strong><em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/0310519594\" target=\"_blank\">How God Became Jesus<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-128-ehrman-and-bird-on-how-jesus-became-god-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 128 \u2013 Ehrman and Bird on How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Mark 1:1-11\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/proving-that-bush-sgt-speedo\/\" target=\"_blank\">Proving that Bush = Sgt. Speedo<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-formulation-of-leibnizs-law-the-indiscernibility-of-identicals\/\" target=\"_blank\">A formulation of Leibniz\u2019s Law \/ <strong>the Indiscernibility of Identicals<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>Daniel 7:13<\/li>\n<li>Psalm 110:1<\/li>\n<li>Mark 13:32<\/li>\n<li>Mark 14:61-64<\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/does-mark-teach-that-jesus-is-god\/\" target=\"_blank\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-37145\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/hair-on-fire.jpg\" alt=\"hair on fire\" width=\"263\" height=\"411\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/hair-on-fire.jpg 313w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/hair-on-fire-192x300.jpg 192w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/hair-on-fire-90x141.jpg 90w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 263px) 100vw, 263px\" \/>Does Mark teach that Jesus is God?<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/mark-jesus-is-gods-son-the-messiah\/\" target=\"_blank\">Mark: Jesus is God\u2019s Son, the Messiah<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-and-his-son-the-logic-of-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\">God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.vexen.co.uk\/religion\/ebionites.html\" target=\"_blank\">1st Century Christian <strong>Ebionites<\/strong> &#8211;\u00a0The Original Christians?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.britannica.com\/biography\/Theodotus-the-Tanner\" target=\"_blank\">Theodotus The Tanner<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Acts 2:36; Acts 13:32-33<\/li>\n<li>Segal, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.scribd.com\/doc\/129763015\/Alan-F-Segal-Two-Powers-in-Heaven\" target=\"_blank\">Two Powers in Heaven<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-argument-in-john-10\/\" target=\"_blank\">Jesus&#8217;s argument in John 10<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/ehrmans-misreading-of-john-1030\/\" target=\"_blank\">Ehrman\u2019s misreading of John 10:30<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-63-thomas-belsham-and-other-scholars-on-john-858\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 63 \u2013 Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58<\/a><\/li>\n<li>John 17:1-3<\/li>\n<li>John 20:17<\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-70-the-one-god-and-his-son-according-to-john\/\">podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John<\/a><\/li>\n<li>\n<ul id=\"lcp_instance_0\" class=\"lcp_catlist\">\n<li><a title=\"podcast 13 \u2013 On Bauckham\u2019s Bargain\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-13-on-bauckhams-bargain\/\">podcast 13 \u2013 On Bauckham\u2019s Bargain<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s <strong>thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/Robbero\/53070\" target=\"_blank\">Unknown Things<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong> by <a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/people\/Robbero\" target=\"_blank\">Robbero<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Does chapter one of the earliest gospel (Mark) portray Jesus as the God of Israel, as Yahweh himself? This is part of what Dr. Michael Bird argues in this second half of the debate.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":37137,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,14,9,57,13,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-37132","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-history","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theologians","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37132","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=37132"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37132\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37302,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/37132\/revisions\/37302"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/37137"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=37132"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=37132"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=37132"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}