{"id":3885,"date":"2012-05-22T11:22:02","date_gmt":"2012-05-22T15:22:02","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=3885"},"modified":"2014-09-11T09:28:52","modified_gmt":"2014-09-11T13:28:52","slug":"trinitarian-unitarian-debates-1-bosserman-vs-finnegan-2008-part-1-dale","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinitarian-unitarian-debates-1-bosserman-vs-finnegan-2008-part-1-dale\/","title":{"rendered":"Trinitarian-Unitarian Debates &#8211; 1 Bosserman vs. Finnegan, 2008 &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-3941 alignleft\" title=\"like a boss.jgp\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_-300x300.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_-420x420.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_-460x460.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_-90x90.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/like-a-boss.jgp_.jpg 500w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>Sean Finnegan<\/strong> is an intelligent and well spoken &#8220;Biblical Unitarian&#8221; Christian. He recently earned an M.A. in Church History from Boston University. He runs the\u00a0<a title=\"christianmonotheism\" href=\"http:\/\/www.christianmonotheism.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">christianmonotheism<\/a> website, which aggregates work by contemporary Christian unitarians. I was pleased to meet him at a recent conference, at which he gave a fascinating presentation on how many (but not all) &#8220;church fathers&#8221; rejected the everlasting earthly Kingdom in favor of &#8220;going to heaven,&#8221; i.e. a non-bodily afterlife.<\/p>\n<p>Here&#8217;s <a title=\"Kingdom Ready blog post\" href=\"http:\/\/lhim.org\/blog\/2008\/06\/01\/debating-the-trinity-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">a blog post by Sean<\/a> on the debate I&#8217;ll be reviewing below.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brent Bosserman<\/strong> was at the time of the debate an adjunct professor at Northwest University in Washington state. I believe he&#8217;s still there, but can&#8217;t find out much about him online. But here&#8217;s a long 2007 talk of his, called <a title=\"Bosserman on Trinity\" href=\"http:\/\/theresurgence.com\/2007\/08\/14\/christianity-and-trinitarian-worldview\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Christianity and Trinitarian Worldview<\/a>.&#8221; He talks at the start about his background.<\/p>\n<p>This debate suffers by <strong>not having a precisely defined debate question<\/strong>. While Finnegan mostly sticks to the biblical case for his view and against Bosserman&#8217;s, Bosserman pulls out a broad brush and tries to compare all-encompassing &#8220;worldviews.&#8221; This is not a good idea; a debate is finite in time!<\/p>\n<p>The intros are over-long and intrusive here; I&#8217;ve skipped you to the actual start. My summaries and commentary follow.<\/p>\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" src=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/UD6LMdKlKKI?start=676&#038;feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<ul>\n<li>start \u00a0&#8211; 32:06 \u00a0<strong>Finnegan opening statement<\/strong>. Starts with his central claims, and with emphasizing that <!--more-->he intends to base his views on the Bible. Makes the point that it can be true that &#8220;Jesus is God&#8221; even though Jesus is not God himself. Effectively bats down arguments for &#8220;the deity of Christ&#8221; from his forgiving sins, doing miracles. This a fallacy: Jesus pre-existent, therefore Jesus is God. Must prefer revelation to tradition. Will try to show (1) NT teaches God = Father, (2) Trinity against reason, (3) Trinity vs. Bible. Wants to know who, in Bosserman&#8217;s view, was the first trinitarian. Proof-texting vs. actually showing that the Bible teaches or implies Trinity. Defines trinitarianism. Bible is unitarian; argument from singular pronouns and verbs. Jesus agreed with the Shema, which presents Yahweh as the only God. Various NT texts identify the Father as this one God. Each &#8220;person&#8221; is supposed to be a god (&#8220;fully God&#8221;); ergo 3 gods. But it says there&#8217;s only 1. &#8220;Trinity,&#8221; &#8220;God-man,&#8221; &#8220;fully God,&#8221; &#8220;God the Son&#8221; not in Bible, which is suspicious. Jesus died, not omniscient, was really tempted &#8211; each of these shows that he is not God, given what the NT says about God. Holy Spirit not clearly a person, lacks personal name, and it was controversial even in 380 to say the Holy Spirit was a divine person.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>32:07-52:22\u00a0<strong>Bosserman opening statement<\/strong>: Warns us, correctly, that he&#8217;ll be &#8220;racing through a <strong>mass of material<\/strong>.&#8221; Rehearses orthodox formula, adds that each person &#8220;may be identified with&#8221; 3 particular persons, &#8220;each of whom exhausts the divine nature.&#8221; This really &#8220;a conflict of worldviews.&#8221; His view does, and unitarianism doesn&#8217;t &#8220;cohere with the broad themes of scripture.&#8221; Three issues (1) person and work of Christ, (2) theologies, (3) anthropologies. Only God the Son could atone for our sin. Unitarian thinks, absurdly, that a fallen human, an object of wrath [he means, Jesus] saves us, which means God makes us righteous &#8220;by fiat.&#8221; Unitarian can&#8217;t do justice to Jesus&#8217; eternal <strong>pre-existence<\/strong> (usual proof texts). Not pre-existence in God&#8217;s mind, because of what Jesus says in John 3. &#8220;Logos&#8221; needn&#8217;t be impersonal, i.e. a divine attribute. Trinity &#8220;is the fruition of Jewish monotheism&#8221; preserving and protecting monotheism. <strong>Unitarianism makes God dependent on creation<\/strong>; God eternally loving, but can&#8217;t be so unless there&#8217;s someone else to love, but if unitarianism this can only be a creature. Exegetical difficulties: &#8220;Jesus is God&#8221; and &#8220;is identified with God. \u00a0Has divine attributes like omnipresence, OT Yahweh texts applied to him. Unitarians argue that beings other than God can be called &#8220;God.&#8221; But when judges etc. called <em>elohim<\/em> this needn&#8217;t be a god, so not &#8220;a strict divine title.&#8221; Psalm 45:6 is controversial among Jews; many want to translate &#8220;God is your throne&#8221; not &#8220;your throne, O God.&#8221; So what Thomas says (John 20) this must be ascribing &#8220;perfect deity&#8221; to Jesus. Also &#8220;I am first and last&#8221;, &#8220;I am&#8221; &#8211; in such places Jesus is<strong> identifying himself as God<\/strong>. 47:00 Unitarian argument from pronouns goes wrong. Singular pronouns can refer to groups of people. Unitarians foolishly anthropomorphic or humanistic about God. God is a person &#8220;in a radically different way&#8221; than we are. Rebuts straw man argument vs. pre-existence of Jesus (we didn&#8217;t, so he didn&#8217;t). Jesus says Father is &#8220;in him&#8221; which shows that Jesus has the divine nature. Misc. patristic riffing. The &#8220;hinge&#8221; of the gospel is Jesus&#8217; two natures.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div><strong>Round to Finnegan<\/strong>.\u00a0Finnegan speaks naturally, and at a good pace, and has a good feel for separating central from side issues. He makes few points, and argues intelligibly for them. \u00a0Bosserman races way too quickly through too many arguments; he&#8217;s firehosing.<\/div>\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" src=\"http:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/OXc5ltzKq3Y?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<p><strong>Bosserman needs to say a lot more<\/strong> to make most of his arguments effectively. He at least once criticizes a straw man, noted above. \u00a0The points about anthopology are a not getting anywhere. His emphasis on pre-existence of Jesus is a mistake; as Finnegan explained, nothing hinges on that. He&#8217;s not short of confidence, and speaks well, but is shooting wildly and too rapidly. To his credit, he <em>is<\/em> interacting with unitarian arguments, e.g. re: pronouns. But the import and strength of his rebuttals are unclear. The point that a unitarian God must be dependent on creation would devastating &#8211; <em>if<\/em> he made it stick. But he does not. Same with his points about atonement. Too quick!<\/p>\n<p><em><a title=\"Part 2\" href=\" http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3971\" target=\"_blank\">Next post: rebuttal rounds.<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Sean Finnegan is an intelligent and well spoken &#8220;Biblical Unitarian&#8221; Christian. He recently earned an M.A. in Church History from Boston University. He runs the\u00a0christianmonotheism website, which aggregates work by contemporary Christian unitarians. I was pleased to meet him at a recent conference, at which he gave a fascinating presentation on how many (but not&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinitarian-unitarian-debates-1-bosserman-vs-finnegan-2008-part-1-dale\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Trinitarian-Unitarian Debates &#8211; 1 Bosserman vs. Finnegan, 2008 &#8211; Part 1<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":3968,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,38,20,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3885","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-monotheism","category-mystery","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3885","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3885"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3885\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":6436,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3885\/revisions\/6436"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3968"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3885"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3885"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3885"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}