{"id":38869,"date":"2017-05-01T14:26:41","date_gmt":"2017-05-01T18:26:41","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=38869"},"modified":"2017-05-08T18:48:35","modified_gmt":"2017-05-08T22:48:35","slug":"podcast-181-whites-case-for-the-trinity-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-181-whites-case-for-the-trinity-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 181 &#8211; White&#8217;s case for the Trinity &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4475\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-38869-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities181.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities181.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities181.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities181.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=38869-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities181.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities181.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-38879\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-James-White-April-2017-1-1024x756.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"426\" height=\"314\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-James-White-April-2017-1-1024x756.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-James-White-April-2017-1-450x332.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-James-White-April-2017-1-768x567.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dr-James-White-April-2017-1.jpg 1203w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 426px) 100vw, 426px\" \/>Some would say that Reformed apologist Dr. James White, director of <a href=\"http:\/\/www.aomin.org\/\">Alpha and Omega Ministries<\/a>, is the<strong> best contemporary debater<\/strong> on behalf of traditional catholic views on the Trinity. Certainly, he&#8217;s had time and opportunity to sharpen his arguments, having debated the Trinity and\/or the &#8220;deity of Christ&#8221; with (among others) a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=JUiZ-fyPSHE\">Muslim scholar<\/a>, some <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=kYhaH0ftujI\">biblical unitarians<\/a> (also <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=pRJsLJRYG9M\">here<\/a>), a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=sMOHBT3lSf4\">Oneness Pentecostal<\/a>, and a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=KkjBSxm6_UE\">defender of Jehovah&#8217;s Witness Theology<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>But how strong <em>is<\/em> his case?<\/strong> In Dr. White&#8217;s view, &#8220;the&#8221; Trinity doctrine is easily deduced from the Bible. Is that true?<\/p>\n<p>In this and the next episode of the trinities podcast, I <strong>evaluate Dr. White&#8217;s opening statement<\/strong> from <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ZnElgAnN414&amp;t=10242s\">a recent debate with a minister from the non-trinitarian Iglesia ni Christo denomination<\/a> from the Philippines. I find that in many ways, Dr. White <strong>does not connect with<\/strong> the views of his opponent. And he<strong> hunkers down in some simple traditional language<\/strong> about the Trinity, never clarifying just what he thinks the Trinity is. For example, he <strong>does nothing to undermine arguments that &#8220;the&#8221; Trinity doctrine is incoherent.<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Argument 1: collapsing the Father and Son<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>1. The Father just is God (i.e. the Father and God are numerically one).<br \/>\n2. The Son just is God (i.e. the Son and God are numerically one).<br \/>\n3. God just is the Son. (From 2, by the symmetry of numerical identity: if a = b then b = a.)<br \/>\n4. The Father just is the Son. (From 1 and 3, by the transitivity of numerical identity: if a = b and b = c, then a = c.)<br \/>\n5. It is not the case that the Father just is the Son.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Dr. White commits to 1, 2, and 5. But then, 3 and 4 follow. And 4 contradicts 5. If &#8220;the&#8221; Trinity implies 1, 2, and 5, then it is incoherent! <strong>What does Dr. White do<\/strong> to show us how a trinitarian can avoid 4? Nothing! And to make matters worse, it&#8217;s not clear that 1 and 2 are consistent with any Trinity theory, which demands that the one God be numerically the same as <em>the Trinity<\/em>.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Argument 2: from Trinity to polytheism<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>1. The Father is divine.<br \/>\n2. The Son is divine.<br \/>\n3. The Spirit is divine.<br \/>\n4. None of these just is any other: Father, Son, Spirit (i.e. they are distinct; no pair are numerically one).<br \/>\n5. To be divine is to be a god.<br \/>\n6. For any x and y, x and y are the same god only if x just is y (i.e. if they are numerically one, the same being\/entity). (In other words, being the same god requires being the same being.)<br \/>\n7. There are at least three gods. (1-6)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Dr. White affirms 1-4, and seems committed to 5 also (we&#8217;re talking about &#8220;full&#8221; deity here). 6 seems self-evident. But 7 follows. If each of the three is a god (1-3, 5), and they&#8217;re not the same god, because they&#8217;re numerically distinct (4,6), then there exist <em>at least<\/em> three gods (7).<\/p>\n<p><strong>It doesn&#8217;t help to just insist that the Trinity is <em>by definition<\/em> monotheistic<\/strong>. If it <em>also<\/em> commits to 1-5, then it seems incoherent, affirming both monotheism and polytheism. And Dr. White <strong>doesn&#8217;t show us<\/strong> how a trinitarian can avoid 7.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Other problems<\/strong> relate to his reliance on controversial translations and\/or interpretations of several texts, and on the dubious relevance of texts where Jesus is (arguably) referred to as &#8220;God.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-181-whites-case-for-the-trinity-part-2\/\">Next week<\/a>, we&#8217;ll hear the rest of his case. Maybe it gets better?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-38882\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-13-450x284.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"284\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-13-450x284.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-13-768x484.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-13-1024x646.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-13.png 1315w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ZnElgAnN414\">Dr. James White vs Bro. Joe Ventilacion &#8211; Who Is God? &#8211; Trinity Debate &#8211; Official <\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.aomin.org\/aoblog\/about\/\">Dr. James White<\/a><\/li>\n<li>&#8220;Trinity&#8221; analytic theology surveys &#8211; by <a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\">Dale Tuggy<\/a>, by <a href=\"http:\/\/Trinity\">Daniel Howard-Snyder<\/a>, by <a href=\"http:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/trinity\/\">Harriet Baber<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.21stcr.org\/multimedia-2013\/1_pdf\/ab_john_17_3_only_true_god.pdf\">Buzzard on Augustine on John 17:3<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=nHPKzIGrJkQ&amp;t=100s\">Logic and John 17:1-3<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-only-true-president-of-the-usa-another-laugable-fox-news-blunder\/\">\u201cthe only true President\u201d of the USA \u2013 another laughable Fox News blunder<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"podcast 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-62-dr-dustin-smith-on-the-preexistence-of-jesus-in-the-gospel-of-john\/\">podcast 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 61 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-61-dr-dustin-smith-on-preexistence-in-ancient-jewish-thought\/\">podcast 61 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/titus\/2-13.htm\">Titus 2:13<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/2_peter\/1-1.htm\">2 Peter 1:1-2<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/romans\/9-5.htm\">Romans 9:5<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/20-17.htm\">John 20:17<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/20-28.htm\">John 20:28<\/a>: <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/context\/matthew\/1-22.htm\">Matthew 1:22-3<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/context\/isaiah\/7-10.htm\">Isaiah 7:10-16;<\/a> <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/8-24.htm\">John 8:28;<\/a> <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/20-31.htm\">John 20:31<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/niv\/john\/10.htm\">John 10<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/john\/8-58.htm\">John 8:58<\/a>; <a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/esv\/john\/18-5.htm\">John 18:5-6; <\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/biblehub.com\/nasb\/philippians\/2.htm\">Philippians 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/kermit-zarley-on-my-lord-and-my-god\/\">Kermit Zarley on \u201cMy Lord and my God.\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-70-the-one-god-and-his-son-according-to-john\/\">podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=z6ez6kKvqdg\">Trinity Schminity<\/a>&#8221; by Winterband<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-argument-in-john-10\/\">Jesus&#8217;s argument in John 10<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=9IPJq1kcDuc\">Who Should Christians Worship?<\/a> (<a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/dale\/who-worship.pdf\">paper<\/a>)<\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 48 \u2013 2 interpretations of Philippians 2 \u2013 part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-48-2-interpretations-of-philippians-2-part-1\/\">podcast 48 \u2013 2 interpretations of Philippians 2 \u2013 part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 49 \u2013 2 interpretations of Philippians 2 \u2013 part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-49-2-interpretations-of-philippians-2-part-2\/\">podcast 49 \u2013 2 interpretations of Philippians 2 \u2013 part 2<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-38889\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-62-450x171.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"171\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-62-450x171.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-62-768x292.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-62-1024x390.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-62.png 1649w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong>On the fulfillment fallacy:<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-bible-on-another-previous-life-of-jesus\/\">the Bible on another previous life of Jesus<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-bible-teaches-that-david-is-god\/\">the Bible teaches that David is God<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/proving-that-bush-sgt-speedo\/\">proving that Bush = Sgt. Speedo<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kai_Engel\/ICD-10\/Kai_Engel_-_ICD-10_-_02_Anxiety_1425\">Anxiety<\/a>,&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kai_Engel\/\">Kai Engel<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is this a powerful, state-of-the-art biblical argument for the Trinity?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":38879,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,62,6,54,38,72,9,57,77,13,3,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-38869","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-calvinism","category-complaints","category-debates","category-monotheism","category-pentecostalism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theologians","category-theories","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/38869","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=38869"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/38869\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":38944,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/38869\/revisions\/38944"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/38879"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=38869"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=38869"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=38869"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}