{"id":38933,"date":"2017-05-08T13:41:20","date_gmt":"2017-05-08T17:41:20","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=38933"},"modified":"2017-05-08T18:48:08","modified_gmt":"2017-05-08T22:48:08","slug":"podcast-182-whites-case-for-the-trinity-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-182-whites-case-for-the-trinity-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 182 &#8211; White&#8217;s case for the Trinity &#8211; Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5903\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-38933-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities182.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities182.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities182.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities182.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=38933-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities182.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities182.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-38934\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-White-in-debate-April-2017-450x341.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"341\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-White-in-debate-April-2017-450x341.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-White-in-debate-April-2017-768x582.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-White-in-debate-April-2017-1024x776.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James-White-in-debate-April-2017.jpg 1340w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/>In this episode I finish my review of Dr. Jame&#8217;s White&#8217;s opening statement in his recent debate with unitarian minister Joe Ventilacion. (<a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-181-whites-case-for-the-trinity-part-1\/\">Part 1 is here<\/a>.) At a couple of points point here Dr. White <strong><em>sounds<\/em> like he&#8217;s asserting<\/strong> these three claims:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Son = God<\/li>\n<li>Father = God<\/li>\n<li>not-(Son=Father)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><em>If<\/em> this is what he&#8217;s saying, then he&#8217;s peddling <strong>nonsense<\/strong>. 1-3 are a demonstrably inconsistent triad. From any two of these, it follows that the remaining one is false. Informally:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>If Son and Father each just are God (1 &amp; 2), then they must be each other. (not-3)<\/li>\n<li>If the Son just is God and is numerically distinct from the Father (1 &amp; 3) then this rules out the Father being numerically one with God (not-2).<\/li>\n<li>If the Father just is God (2) and he is numerically distinct from the Son (3), then it must be false that the Son just is God . (not-1)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>It is not reasonable to assert 1-3, since according to logic, at least one of them must be false.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-38935 size-full\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/challenge-considered-1-e1494262710462.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"400\" height=\"320\" \/>But it&#8217;s <strong><em>not<\/em> clear that this <em>is<\/em> what Dr. White is asserting!<\/strong> He says that the &#8220;being&#8221; of God, which he oddly uses the name YHWH for, is &#8220;shared by&#8221; each of the three. But he neither clarifies the meaning of <strong>&#8220;Persons&#8221;<\/strong> in the context of the Trinity, nor does he clarify the term <strong>&#8220;being.&#8221;<\/strong> This prevents him from making an effective case. Until it is clearly stated what &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; is, how can we see it as obviously following from the New Testament? <em>What<\/em> is supposed to follow?<\/p>\n<p>At the end of this episode I issue <strong>a challenge to Dr. White to publicly debate<\/strong> me one one of these questions:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>The God of the Bible is the Trinity.<\/li>\n<li>According to the Bible, Jesus is God himself.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>I claim that a strong case can be made against both of these claims from the Bible and common sense, <strong><em>without<\/em> assuming unitarianism<\/strong> or any controversial theory of philosophy or theology.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=ZnElgAnN414\">Dr. James White vs Bro. Joe Ventilacion &#8211; Who Is God? &#8211; Trinity Debate &#8211; Official <\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.aomin.org\/aoblog\/about\/\">Dr. James White<\/a> (<a href=\"http:\/\/www.aomin.org\/aoblog\/contact-us\/\">Contact Form<\/a>)<\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.csun.edu\/%7Edgw61315\/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20hominem\"><em>ad hominem<\/em> fallacy<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Anthony Buzzard, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/astore.amazon.com\/trinities-20\/detail\/B007USU6BS\">Jesus was not a Trinitarian<\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-38936\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-71-440x450.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"440\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-71-440x450.png 440w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-71-768x785.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017-04-29-71.png 870w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 440px) 100vw, 440px\" \/><\/em><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/simplifying-the-indiscernibility-of-identicals\/\">the indiscernibility of identicals<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-6-get-a-date-part-1\/\">10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #6 get a date \u2013 part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=trinitarian+or+unitarian%3F\">trinitarian or unitarian?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-lost-early-history-of-unitarian-christian-theology\/\">The Lost Early History of Unitarian Christian Theology<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=0MJ8xlrMOvA\">Is there a God? Tuggy &#8211; Kershnar debate, Fredonia, April 2016 <\/a><\/li>\n<li>\u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=z6ez6kKvqdg\">Trinity Schminity<\/a>\u201d by Winterband<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/andygcohen.bandcamp.com\/track\/land-legs\">Land Legs<\/a>,&#8221; by Andy G. Cohen.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr. White vs. John on the thesis of the 4th gospel.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":38934,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,62,6,54,5,57,77,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-38933","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-calvinism","category-complaints","category-debates","category-modalism","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/38933","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=38933"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/38933\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":38945,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/38933\/revisions\/38945"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/38934"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=38933"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=38933"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=38933"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}