{"id":39096,"date":"2017-06-12T17:22:16","date_gmt":"2017-06-12T21:22:16","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=39096"},"modified":"2017-06-12T17:22:16","modified_gmt":"2017-06-12T21:22:16","slug":"podcast-186-how-to-tell-whether-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-186-how-to-tell-whether-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 186 \u2013 How to tell whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_2013\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-39096-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities186.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities186.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities186.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities186.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=39096-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities186.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities186.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-39098 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/christianity-and-islam-450x287.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"287\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/christianity-and-islam-450x287.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/christianity-and-islam.jpg 627w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/>What if the recipe for answering this question supplied by Dr. Bogardus and Ms. Urban <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-185-how-to-tell-whether-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-part-1\/\">last time<\/a> is correct? <strong>Applying their method, what answer to we arrive at?<\/strong> In this episode Dr. Bogardus, Ms. Urban, and I venture <strong>beyond the methodology<\/strong> given in their paper, to consider some other relevant facts. Among them,<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>What about <strong>converts<\/strong> from one to the other, who insist that they have not switched gods, although they have changed their theology?<\/li>\n<li>What about <strong>someone with a pet theory<\/strong> about, say, divine providence, who just insists that this is a <em>sine qua non<\/em> (without which not) condition of referring to God, so that people who don&#8217;t agree with that theory literally can&#8217;t refer to God?<\/li>\n<li>What about the <strong>early Christian reaction to Islam<\/strong>, for example in John of Damascus, which assumed co-reference, treating Islamic teaching as a variety of heresy? This clearly presupposes that Christians and Muslims are talking about the same god. Is this relevant to our answer today?<\/li>\n<li>What about present-day <strong>Christians who still use &#8220;Allah&#8221;<\/strong> for the Christian God?<\/li>\n<li>What about present-day <strong>Jews<\/strong>? Aren&#8217;t they talking about the same god Christians are talking about?<\/li>\n<li>What about the fact, if it is a fact, that when traditions <strong>feel threatened<\/strong>, they want to deny that the other guys are talking about their god, whereas when they feel confident, they want to affirm co-reference?<\/li>\n<li>About our question, some traditions take a strong position. It seems <strong>part of standard Islamic teaching<\/strong> that &#8220;Allah&#8221; refers to Yahweh, the God of the Jews and the Christians.<\/li>\n<li><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-39097\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Pope-Paul-VI.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"360\" height=\"446\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Pope-Paul-VI.jpg 388w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Pope-Paul-VI-364x450.jpg 364w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 360px) 100vw, 360px\" \/>And<strong> since Vatican II, the Catholic Church<\/strong>, arguably, has committed to co-reference. In a 1965 statement, Pope Paul VI said,<br \/>\n<blockquote><p><strong>The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God<\/strong>, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Towards the end, Dr. Bogardus points out that the <strong>reference question is one thing and the worship question is another<\/strong>. I think that this is an important point to keep in mind, and I&#8217;ve <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/goofus-and-gallant-grok-and-sophie\/\">blogged about it before<\/a>.<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-39102\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/keytar-450x247.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"326\" height=\"179\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/keytar-450x247.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/keytar.png 600w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 326px) 100vw, 326px\" \/><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>One <strong>additional thought<\/strong> I had post-conversation: Is it really true that a Catholic philosopher like Dr. Bogardus agrees with <em>everything<\/em> that Abraham would say about God? I think it may depend on what sort of Trinity theory the former is committed to. Abraham thought of God as a &#8220;he,&#8221; as a mighty self. So do some trinitarians &#8211; what I call &#8220;one-self trinitarians.&#8221; But others, what I call &#8220;three-self trinitarians&#8221; and &#8220;negative mysterians&#8221; disagree. One might also wonder whether Abraham would have believed it impossible for God to <em>be<\/em> a man (as opposed to <em>appearing<\/em> in a theophany in human-like form).<\/p>\n<p><strong>Thanks to Dr. Bogardus and Ms. Urban<\/strong> for the good conversations and for their helpful, carefully-argued paper.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode<\/strong>:<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/John_of_Damascus#\/media\/File:John_Damascus_%28arabic_icon%29.gif\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-39101 size-medium\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/John_Damascus_arabic_icon-sm-285x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"285\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/John_Damascus_arabic_icon-sm-285x450.jpg 285w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/John_Damascus_arabic_icon-sm.jpg 364w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 285px) 100vw, 285px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/sites.google.com\/site\/tbogardus\/\">Tomas Bogardus\u2019s home page<\/a><\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.academia.edu\/31700772\/How_to_tell_whether_Christians_and_Muslims_worship_the_same_God_-_forthcoming_in_Faith_and_Philosophy\">\u201cHow to Tell Whether Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God\u201d (preprint \u2013 forthcoming in <em>Faith and Philosophy<\/em>)<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-185-how-to-tell-whether-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-part-1\/\">podcast 185 \u2013 How to tell whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/do-christians-muslims-worship-same-god-part-1\/\">podcast 120 \u2013 Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god? Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/do-christians-muslims-worship-same-god-part-2\/\">podcast 121 \u2013 Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god? Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Pope_Paul_VI\">Pope Paul VI<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.vatican.va\/archive\/hist_councils\/ii_vatican_council\/documents\/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html\"><em>Nostra Aetate<\/em><\/a><\/strong> &#8211; a 1965 papal &#8220;Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-93-review-of-seeking-allah-finding-jesus-part-1\/\"><strong>podcast 93 \u2013 review of Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus \u2013 Part 1<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-94-review-of-seeking-allah-finding-jesus-part-2\/\">podcast 94 \u2013 review of Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Special Issue of the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.emsweb.org\/\">Evangelical Missiological Society<\/a>&#8216;s &#8220;Occasional Bulletin&#8221;:\u00a0 <a href=\"https:\/\/www.emsweb.org\/images\/occasional-bulletin\/special-editions\/OB_SpecialEdition_2016.pdf\"><strong>Wheaton and the Controversy Over Whether Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/John_of_Damascus\">John of Damascus<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Acts 17:16-34, Matthew 25:31-46.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/goofus-and-gallant-grok-and-sophie\/\">Is Allah God? Goofus and Gallant, Grok and Sophie<\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Artofescapism\/Modern_Experimental__Progressive_Electronic\/Made_of_Metal\">Made of Metal<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Artofescapism\/\">Artofescapism<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Applying the methodology&#8230; can we answer the question?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":39098,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[59,9,57,66,76,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-39096","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-islam","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-religious-diversity","category-roman-catholicism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39096","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=39096"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39096\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":39129,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39096\/revisions\/39129"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/39098"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=39096"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=39096"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=39096"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}