{"id":39224,"date":"2017-07-10T00:01:54","date_gmt":"2017-07-10T04:01:54","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=39224"},"modified":"2017-07-06T15:53:46","modified_gmt":"2017-07-06T19:53:46","slug":"podcast-190-what-is-the-trinity-a-triad-of-book-reviews","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-190-what-is-the-trinity-a-triad-of-book-reviews\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 190 &#8211; What is the Trinity? A triad of book reviews"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3331\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-39224-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities190.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities190.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities190.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities190.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=39224-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities190.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities190.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-39225 size-full\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/What-is-the-Trinity-three-books-by-that-title.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"850\" height=\"434\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/What-is-the-Trinity-three-books-by-that-title.jpg 850w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/What-is-the-Trinity-three-books-by-that-title-450x230.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/What-is-the-Trinity-three-books-by-that-title-768x392.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 850px) 100vw, 850px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>Curious Christians rightly ask: <strong>what <em>is<\/em> the Trinity?<\/strong> This question is especially pressing for Protestants. We (it is hoped) base our theology on scripture, and yet when we look in the Bible, <strong>there is no passage<\/strong> which clearly lays out this idea that God is three &#8220;Persons&#8221; in one &#8220;substance.&#8221; In this episode I review three Protestant treatments.<\/p>\n<p>Reader beware! I point out that the ones by Dr. Sproul and Dr. Wells suffer from some important <strong>historical inaccuracies<\/strong>, especially about the content and purpose of the famous 325 creed composed at Nicea.<\/p>\n<p>More importantly, the two <strong>clash on what the Trinity doctrine really means<\/strong>. Dr. Sproul seems to say that the Trinity is <strong>one divine self<\/strong> with three &#8220;personae&#8221; (personalities), but later seems to say that we really can&#8217;t understand what God is three of. Dr. Wells asserts <a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#ThrSel\">what I call a <strong>&#8220;three self&#8221; Trinity<\/strong><\/a><strong> theory<\/strong>, on which each &#8220;Person&#8221; of the Trinity is a self. He&#8217;s not able to say, though, how this differs from tritheism! Instead he assures us that we don&#8217;t need to worry about that&#8230; for a surprising reason!<\/p>\n<p>The first two books make what seem to me to be half-hearted attempts to derive a doctrine of a triune God from the Bible. (<a href=\"http:\/\/irr.org\/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity\">Full-hearted one here<\/a>.) I don&#8217;t try this, but discuss some problems such arguments face. My book drops the pretense that the historical creeds express any one standard theology. My book <strong>tries to get the history right<\/strong>, and then explores how the 4th c. creed-makers must have understood the claim that the Father and Son are <em>homousion<\/em>, &#8220;same essence&#8221; or &#8220;same substance.&#8221; I also explain different Christian views on what the &#8220;Persons&#8221; are supposed to be, and relate this to the question, what sort of being should a Christian say God is. Is the one God a great, unique self, a group of divine selves, or a something-we-know-not-what? And what or who does scripture teach the one God to be? I also investigate what it means to say that the Trinity is a &#8220;mystery.&#8221; My book is a <strong>roadmap<\/strong> of the landscape, to help you navigate through this issue.<\/p>\n<p>[spp-tweet tweet=&#8221;What is the Trinity? A triad of books reviewed!&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-39232\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/bench-1853961_1280cr.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"440\" height=\"580\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/bench-1853961_1280cr.jpg 631w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/bench-1853961_1280cr-341x450.jpg 341w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 440px) 100vw, 440px\" \/><\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.rcsproul.com\/\">Dr. R.C. Sproul home page<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.ligonier.org\/store\/what-is-the-trinity-epub\/\"><em><strong>What is the Trinity?<\/strong><\/em><\/a>\u00a0by Dr. R.C. Sproul<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.gordonconwell.edu\/academics\/view-faculty-member.cfm?faculty_id=15912&amp;grp_id=8947\">Dr. David F. Wells home page<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Trinity-Basics-Faith-David-Wells\/dp\/1596384360\/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1499356597&amp;sr=8-3&amp;keywords=what+is+the+trinity\"><em><strong>What is the Trinity?<\/strong><\/em><\/a> by Dr. David Wells<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/dale\/\">Dr. Dale Tuggy home page<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/What-Trinity-Thinking-Father-Spirit\/dp\/154677260X\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1499363727&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=what+is+the+trinity\"><em><strong>What is the Trinity<\/strong><\/em><\/a> by Dr. Dale Tuggy<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/what-is-the-trinity.com\/\"><strong>what-is-the-trinity.com<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/restitutio.org\/2017\/07\/02\/interview-24-what-is-the-trinity-with-dale-tuggy\/\">Restitutio podcast\u00a0Interview 24: What Is the Trinity with Dale Tuggy<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-standard-opening-move\/\">The Standard Opening Move<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-164-on-counting-gods\/\">podcast 164 \u2013 On Counting Gods<\/a>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/revistatheologica.com\/index.php\/rtl\/article\/view\/9\/11\">Tuggy 2016, &#8220;On Counting Gods&#8221;<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-97-dr-michael-heiser-on-the-unseen-realm\/\">podcast 97 \u2013 Dr. Michael Heiser on The Unseen Realm<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Gregory Boyd,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/God-War-Bible-Spiritual-Conflict\/dp\/0830818855\/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1499370276&amp;sr=8-3&amp;keywords=god+at+war\"><em>God at War: The Bible &amp; Spiritual Conflict<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li>Psalm 110:1; John 10:30; Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 3:22-23<\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/www.21stcr.org\/21stcr_commentary\/john10_30.html\">&#8220;I and the Father are one.&#8221; (John 10:30) Commentary by Pastors Sean Finnegan and J. Dan Gill<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-Was-Trinitarian-Anthony-Buzzard\/dp\/0967324971\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1499369882&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=jesus+was+not+a+trinitarian\"><strong><em>Jesus was not a Trinitarian<\/em><\/strong><\/a> by Sir Anthony Buzzard<\/li>\n<li>Herbert W. Bateman, &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.hwbateman.com\/data\/articles\/e0781c2b-02bd-42cd-86a7-cc36386feb7f\/Psalm%20110-1%20and%20the%20New%20Testament_0.pdf\">The Use of Psalm 110:1 in the New Testament<\/a>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.what-is-the-trinity.com\/order\/\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-39237\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/post-image-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"400\" height=\"640\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/post-image-1.jpg 400w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/post-image-1-281x450.jpg 281w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li>Robert M. Bowman, Jr. &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/irr.org\/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity\">The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity: An Outline Study<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-31-william-hasker-on-the-arian-controversy\/\">podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\">podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 29 \u2013 Arius\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-29-arius\/\">podcast 29 \u2013 Arius<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Rowan Williams,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Arius-Heresy-Tradition-Rowan-Williams\/dp\/0802849695\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1499370223&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=williams%2C+arius\"><em>Arius: Heresy and Tradition<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 177 \u2013 The Second Sirmian Creed (357)\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-177-the-second-sirmian-creed-357\/\">podcast 177 \u2013 The Second Sirmian Creed (357)<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 176 \u2013 Photinus of Sirmium\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-176-photinus-of-sirmium\/\">podcast 176 \u2013 Photinus of Sirmium<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 175 \u2013 Marcellus of Ancyra\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-175-marcellus-of-ancyra\/\">podcast 175 \u2013 Marcellus of Ancyra<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 174 \u2013 The First Sirmian creed (351)\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-174-the-first-sirmian-creed-351\/\">podcast 174 \u2013 The First Sirmian creed (351)<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 173 \u2013 Eusebius of Caesarea\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-173-eusebius-of-caesarea\/\">podcast 173 \u2013 Eusebius of Caesarea<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 172 \u2013 The Creed of the Long Lines (344)\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-172-the-creed-of-the-long-lines-344\/\">podcast 172 \u2013 The Creed of the Long Lines (344)<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 171 \u2013 Assessing Athanasius and his Arguments\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-171-assessing-athanasius-and-his-arguments\/\">podcast 171 \u2013 Assessing Athanasius and his Arguments<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 170 \u2013 Athanasius\u2019s On the Nicene Council \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-170-athanasiuss-on-the-nicene-council-part-2\/\">podcast 170 \u2013 Athanasius\u2019s On the Nicene Council \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 169 \u2013 Athanasius\u2019s On the Nicene Council \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-169-athanasiuss-on-the-nicene-council-part-1\/\">podcast 169 \u2013 Athanasius\u2019s On the Nicene Council \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 142 \u2013 Dr. R.T. Mullins on the coherence of \u201cclassical\u201d theism\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-142-dr-r-t-mullins-coherence-classical-theism\/\">podcast 142 \u2013 Dr. R.T. Mullins on the coherence of \u201cclassical\u201d theism<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"podcast 141 \u2013 Dr. R.T. Mullins \u2013 Is God timeless?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-141-dr-r-t-mullins-is-god-timeless\/\">podcast 141 \u2013 Dr. R.T. Mullins \u2013 Is God timeless?<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 108 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-108-dr-robert-m-bowman-jr-on-triadic-new-testament-passages-part-2\/\">podcast 108 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"podcast 107 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-107-dr-robert-m-bowman-jr-on-triadic-new-testament-passages-part-1\/\">podcast 107 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 1<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><strong><a title=\"podcast 16 \u2013 How is Jesus \u201cthe one Lord\u201d?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-16-how-is-jesus-the-one-lord\/\">podcast 16 \u2013 How is Jesus \u201cthe one Lord\u201d?<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 15 \u2013 Are Paul\u2019s \u201cone God\u201d and \u201cone Lord\u201d one and the same?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-15-are-pauls-one-god-and-one-lord-one-and-the-same\/\">podcast 15 \u2013 Are Paul\u2019s \u201cone God\u201d and \u201cone Lord\u201d one and the same?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 14 \u2013 One God, One Lord, Two Interpretations\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-14-one-god-one-lord-two-interpretations\/\">podcast 14 \u2013 One God, One Lord, Two Interpretations<\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kai_Engel\/Chapter_Two__Mild\/Kai_Engel_-_Chapter_Two_-_Mild_-_03_Brooks_1014\">&#8220;Brooks&#8221;<\/a> by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kai_Engel\/\">Kai Engel<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Two clashing answers, and a roadmap.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":39225,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[16,6,14,57,77],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-39224","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-books","category-complaints","category-history","category-podcast","category-protestant"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39224","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=39224"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39224\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":39243,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39224\/revisions\/39243"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/39225"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=39224"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=39224"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=39224"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}