{"id":39574,"date":"2017-10-09T15:11:10","date_gmt":"2017-10-09T19:11:10","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=39574"},"modified":"2017-10-09T16:39:13","modified_gmt":"2017-10-09T20:39:13","slug":"podcast-197-noah-worcester-on-atonement-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-197-noah-worcester-on-atonement-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 197 \u2013 Noah Worcester on Atonement \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4440\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-39574-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities197.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities197.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities197.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities197.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=39574-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities197.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities197.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p>In this episode congregationalist minister <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-196-noah-worcester-on-atonement-part-1\/\">Noah Worcester<\/a> searches the Bible for various senses in which one person may be said to <strong>&#8220;die for&#8221; another or &#8220;bear&#8221; the sin<\/strong>, sorrow, sickness, or reproach of another. He also notices this Old Testament law:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes may persons be put to death. (Deuteronomy 24:16, NRSV)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/upload.wikimedia.org\/wikipedia\/commons\/d\/de\/The_crucifixion_of_Christ._Line_engraving_Wellcome_L0073760.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-39582 size-medium\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The_crucifixion_of_Christ._Line_engraving_Wellcome_L0073760-detail-450x318.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"318\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The_crucifixion_of_Christ._Line_engraving_Wellcome_L0073760-detail-450x318.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The_crucifixion_of_Christ._Line_engraving_Wellcome_L0073760-detail-768x543.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The_crucifixion_of_Christ._Line_engraving_Wellcome_L0073760-detail-1024x723.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The_crucifixion_of_Christ._Line_engraving_Wellcome_L0073760-detail.jpg 1138w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/a>He also focuses on <strong>what the New Testament authors explicitly say<\/strong> about the meaning of Jesus&#8217; death, such as:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><span id=\"en-NRSV-28039\" class=\"text Rom-5-6\">For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.<\/span><span id=\"en-NRSV-28040\" class=\"text Rom-5-7\"> Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person\u2014though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die.\u00a0<\/span><span id=\"en-NRSV-28041\" class=\"text Rom-5-8\"><strong>But God proves his love for us<\/strong> in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8, NRSV)<br \/>\n<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Worcester does not find any reason to accept a &#8220;penal substitution&#8221; theory of atonement, on which God&#8217;s holiness requires him to punish someone in order to forgive, so that Jesus takes the punishment due us, cooling off God&#8217;s wrath, enabling him to forgive. But he does find evidence that according to the New Testament, Jesus&#8217; sacrifice was a demonstration of God&#8217;s love for us.<\/p>\n<p>In my view, <strong>Worcester doesn&#8217;t not fully bring out<\/strong> why, positively, Jesus &#8220;had to&#8221; die. But I think he does show how penal substitutionary theories go against the grain of scripture. Listen to Worcester&#8217;s discussion of the passages below, and see if you agree. [spp-tweet tweet=&#8221;Did Christ die in order to display God\u2019s love for us, rather than his wrath towards us?&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 196 \u2013 Noah Worcester on Atonement \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-196-noah-worcester-on-atonement-part-1\/\">podcast 196 \u2013 Noah Worcester on Atonement \u2013 Part 1<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-39590\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/heart-1218007_640-450x450.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/heart-1218007_640-450x450.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/heart-1218007_640-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/heart-1218007_640.png 640w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Noah_Worcester\">Noah Worcester<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.lulu.com\/shop\/noah-worcester\/the-atoning-sacrifice-a-display-of-love-not-wrath\/paperback\/product-21015931.html\"><em><strong>The Atoning Sacrifice, a Display of Love, not of Wrath <\/strong><\/em><\/a>(2nd ed. 1830)<\/li>\n<li>Genesis 26:9; 2 Samuel 18:33; John 11:50; 2 Chronicles 25:3-4; Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel\u00a0 18:20; John 15:30; Romans 5:6-8; Matthew 26:35; Romans 16:4; Matthew 20:27-28; John 10:15; Hebrews 2:10; John 3:16; Romans 8:32; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 4:10; Isaiah 53:6; Matthew 8:17; Romans 15:1; Galatians 6:2; Hebrews 12:3; Hebrews 13:13; 2 Corinthians 4:10; Mark 10:45; John 3:14-15; Mark 12:1-9; Matthew 16:21; Luke 24:6-7; Matthew 25:14-30; Matthew 25:31-46; Acts 2:37-41; 1 Corinthians 2:2; Philippians 2:8; Exodus 33:18-19; Matthew 6:12; Matthew 6:14-15; Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 3:13; 1 John 2:2; Job 42:7-8; Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11; Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Acts 9; Matthew 5:43-48; Romans 12:21; Romans 8:32; Romans 8:38-39.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Isaac_Watts\">Isaac Watts<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-mini-course-on-atonement-by-dr-josh-thurow\/\">a mini-course on atonement by Dr. Josh Thurow<\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Hicham_Chahidi\/~\/Pierre\">Pierre<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Hicham_Chahidi\/\">Hicham Chahidi<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Did Christ die in order to display God&#8217;s love for us, rather than his wrath towards us?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":39582,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[61,21,16,15,57,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-39574","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-atonement","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-podcast","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39574","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=39574"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39574\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":39596,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39574\/revisions\/39596"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/39582"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=39574"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=39574"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=39574"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}