{"id":3972,"date":"2012-05-24T11:25:17","date_gmt":"2012-05-24T15:25:17","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=3972"},"modified":"2013-11-24T23:53:03","modified_gmt":"2013-11-25T04:53:03","slug":"trinitarian-unitarian-debates-1-bosserman-vs-finnegan-2008-part-3-dale","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinitarian-unitarian-debates-1-bosserman-vs-finnegan-2008-part-3-dale\/","title":{"rendered":"Trinitarian-Unitarian Debates &#8211; 1 Bosserman vs. Finnegan, 2008 &#8211; Part 3"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/UD6LMdKlKKI?start=5075&#038;feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<p>Time for <strong>mutual interrogations! This is the best part<\/strong> of this debate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Finnegan questions Bosserman<\/strong>: 1:24:35 &#8211; 1:36:19<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>F: Was the incarnate Jesus <strong>immortal<\/strong>?<\/li>\n<li>\u00a0B: Only in his divine nature. So, yes, he was.<\/li>\n<li>F But then, he can&#8217;t die.<\/li>\n<li>B: The human nature can.<\/li>\n<li>F: So not God, but the impersonal human nature died?<\/li>\n<li>B: No, Jesus died as a man; I&#8217;m no docetist.<\/li>\n<li>F: I&#8217;m unclear on the answer then. Did Jesus die or not? If he exp&#8217;d a human death, he died, no?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div>Comment: Finnegan is right &#8211; the answer is totally <strong>unclear<\/strong>. Hence, Bosserman reaches for a\u00a0<a title=\"red herring fallacy explained\" href=\"http:\/\/www.fallacyfiles.org\/redherrf.html\" target=\"_blank\">red herring<\/a>:<!--more--><\/div>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright\" title=\"red herring\" alt=\"\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/red-herring2-300x273.jpg\" width=\"300\" height=\"273\" \/><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>B: Why bring in a Freudian idea like ego? Anyway, it&#8217;s a mystery. One person experienced the realities of both natures. This is an old claim.<\/li>\n<li>F: Don&#8217;t care about Freud. Rather, you say Jesus can atone only because he&#8217;s God. But the thing, the nature, that makes him God doesn&#8217;t die. How can this be?<\/li>\n<li>B: He can atone because he is &#8220;our covenantal head.&#8221; Didn&#8217;t say he can atone b\/c he&#8217;s God, but only that he&#8217;s righteous b\/c he&#8217;s God.\u00a0<em>No man<\/em>\u00a0can be righteous post-Fall.<\/li>\n<li>F: So Adam not righteous?<\/li>\n<li>B: No, he was. This pre-Fall. Only a divine being could save us.<\/li>\n<li>F: I agree [that Adam was righteous?]<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div>Comment: Not getting anywhere here.<\/div>\n<ul>\n<li>F: During his earthly ministry, was Jesus <strong>omniscient<\/strong>?<\/li>\n<li>B: Yes, the\u00a0<em>logos<\/em>\u00a0was, so Jesus was.<\/li>\n<li>F: Was he <strong>lying<\/strong> when he said he didn&#8217;t know when he was coming back?<\/li>\n<li>B: No. God can occupy radically different perspectives at the same time.<\/li>\n<li>F: I ask you for $5. You say you don&#8217;t have it. Then you give $5 to someone else. Confronted, you clarify that you lacked $5 in your left hand but had $5 in your right.[ Hence, on your view, Jesus lied.]<\/li>\n<li>B: Bad analogy. [Sort of suggests that it is beyond human capacity to say how it is bad.]<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div>Comment: <strong>Point to Finnegan<\/strong>. Bosserman is\u00a0<a title=\"special pleading defined\" href=\"http:\/\/rationalwiki.org\/wiki\/Special_pleading\" target=\"_blank\">special pleading<\/a>\u00a0here.<\/div>\n<ul>\n<li>F: Need clarification on<strong> John 17:3. Who is = to the only true God<\/strong> here?<\/li>\n<li>B: Father.<\/li>\n<li>F: Then, you&#8217;re not a trinitarian, right?<\/li>\n<li>B: Yes I am. I say the Father is divine, but so is the Son, and the first doesn&#8217;t exclude the second. Compare: Amos 3:2. Here Israel &#8220;alone&#8221; was chosen, but clearly, so was Judah, Levi, etc. Because &#8220;Israel&#8221; here represents all the Hebrew tribes. Just so, any member of the Trinity may represent the whole of the Trinity.<\/li>\n<li>F: If I say then that I&#8217;m the only one debating you now, this is consistent with others also debating you now?<\/li>\n<li>B: No, but the case is different with God.<\/li>\n<li>F: Your position looks <strong>unfalsifiable<\/strong>; there is always this escape clause that things are different with God.<\/li>\n<li>B: &#8220;Unfalsifiable&#8221; a recent idea, and it&#8217;s false that a statement must be falsifiable to be true.<\/li>\n<li>F: That&#8217;s not right.<\/li>\n<li>B: No proof-text for &#8220;unfalsifiability&#8221; criterion of truth. God&#8217;s word the ultimate criterion. God is ultimate, and we can&#8217;t question him.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div>Comment: No, it is right. But Finnegan should not commit to that. If a hypothesis is unfalsifiable, that seems to create a problem for its being all-things-considered reasonable, but not for its truth. In any case, Bosserman&#8217;s statement in the 4th line shows that he doesn&#8217;t understand what it is to\u00a0<em>identify<\/em>\u00a0&#8220;two&#8221; things. It&#8217;s a contradiction to assert that\u00a0<em>different<\/em>\u00a0things are each\u00a0<em>numerically identical to<\/em>\u00a0something. One point to each side here.<\/div>\n<div>\n<ul>\n<li>F: Is Jesus Yahweh?<\/li>\n<li>B: Yes.<\/li>\n<li>F: But if the Father is also Yahweh, how is it that Yahweh is one?<\/li>\n<li>B: They have one essence\/being.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<div>Comment: Both question and answer unclear. What&#8217;s the problem with two &#8220;Yahweh&#8221;s exactly, i.e. two beings going by that name? A swing and a miss here.<\/div>\n<p>Oddly, Bosserman refuses to look at Finnegan during this discussion, even while Finnegan is speaking to and looking right at him.<\/p>\n<p>Round to Finnegan.<\/p>\n<p><em><a title=\"Part 4\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/3975\" target=\"_blank\">Next time: the tables are turned.<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Time for mutual interrogations! This is the best part of this debate. Finnegan questions Bosserman: 1:24:35 &#8211; 1:36:19 F: Was the incarnate Jesus immortal? \u00a0B: Only in his divine nature. So, yes, he was. F But then, he can&#8217;t die. B: The human nature can. F: So not God, but the impersonal human nature died?&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinitarian-unitarian-debates-1-bosserman-vs-finnegan-2008-part-3-dale\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Trinitarian-Unitarian Debates &#8211; 1 Bosserman vs. Finnegan, 2008 &#8211; Part 3<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,4,33,38,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3972","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-incarnation","category-monotheism","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3972","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3972"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3972\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5478,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3972\/revisions\/5478"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3972"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3972"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3972"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}