{"id":39736,"date":"2017-11-13T21:38:29","date_gmt":"2017-11-14T02:38:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=39736"},"modified":"2017-11-13T21:41:09","modified_gmt":"2017-11-14T02:41:09","slug":"podcast-202-gregory-of-nazianzus-vs-noah-worcester-on-subordinationist-texts","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-202-gregory-of-nazianzus-vs-noah-worcester-on-subordinationist-texts\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 202 &#8211; Gregory of Nazianzus vs. Noah Worcester on subordinationist texts"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9507\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-39736-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities202.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities202.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities202.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities202.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=39736-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities202.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities202.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-39737\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/worcester-vs-nazianzus-450x310.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"310\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/worcester-vs-nazianzus-450x310.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/worcester-vs-nazianzus.jpg 593w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/>Many readers have thought that especially in the fourth gospel, Jesus is presented as <strong>God himself, or as &#8220;fully divine&#8221;<\/strong> or as possessing a &#8220;divine nature,&#8221; any of which would imply that he is the uncreated creator, <strong>all-knowing and all-powerful (and these independently of any other)<\/strong>, immune to temptation or death, ultimate in authority, and not in any sense &#8220;under&#8221; any other, the ultimate source of all other good things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>But especially in the gospel according to John, Jesus <em>explicitly<\/em> says that his authority, teaching, and power <em>come from God<\/em><\/strong>, from the God who sent him and who works with him and through him and testifies to him, his God and our God, the Father. Don&#8217;t such statements plainly imply <strong>that Jesus is <em>not<\/em> God himself, but that he is someone else, and is dependent<\/strong> on God for his mission, authority, wisdom, and power? And if Jesus were the God of Abraham and Moses, he wouldn&#8217;t have any &#8220;Father&#8221; or any god over him, right? But Jesus in the fourth gospel explicitly claims to have both!<\/p>\n<p>In this episode, you&#8217;ll hear <strong>contrasting approaches to reading such texts<\/strong>. First, ancient catholic bishop, rhetorician, and polemical theologian St. Gregory of Nazianzus (d. 390) from his famous &#8220;theological orations,&#8221; given just before what would come to be called the second &#8220;ecumenical&#8221; church council. In short, he asserts that it is rather obvious that the above subordinationist-sounding texts should be understood as <strong>having to do with Jesus&#8217;s &#8220;human nature&#8221; only.<br \/>\n<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>In contrast, early American theologian <strong>Noah Worcester (d. 1837) argues that because of the ordinary use of pronouns, we ought to take such claims as having to do with Jesus&#8217;s whole person<\/strong>, and that asserting him to be talking (without any hint of it) only of one of his parts (natures) would make Jesus a deceiver. He also notes that the author of this gospel is constantly at pains to correct the reader&#8217;s potential misunderstandings of Jesus&#8217;s sayings. Why then, if John means to assert that Jesus is God, does he not qualify or explain so many sayings in his gospel which would lead the reader to think that Jesus is a lesser being than God who is dependent on him?<\/p>\n<p>Moreover,<strong> what if the shoe were on the other foot?<\/strong> What if Jesus were always presented as asserting his own absolute independence of any other, with no one over him &#8211; and the unitarians said that he was only speaking <em>of the power of God within him<\/em>, and <em>not<\/em> of his human self, the one in whom that power operated? If such unitarians would merely be evading the obvious force of such texts, why are not trinitarians, in the actual case, merely evading the force of the many clear subordinationist texts?<\/p>\n<p>In this episode you&#8217;ll hear the entirety of Worcester&#8217;s 1827 tract <a href=\"http:\/\/www.lulu.com\/shop\/various-authors\/sixteen-american-unitarian-tracts\/paperback\/product-3871427.html\"><strong>&#8220;The Doctrine of Pronouns Applied to Christ\u2019s Testimony of Himself.&#8221;<\/strong><\/a> For your listening pleasure, I&#8217;ve slightly modernized his language.<\/p>\n<p><strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright  wp-image-39739\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Doctrine-of-Pronouns.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"440\" height=\"700\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Doctrine-of-Pronouns.jpg 409w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Doctrine-of-Pronouns-283x450.jpg 283w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 440px) 100vw, 440px\" \/>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/God-Christ-Theological-patristics-1-Aug-2002\/dp\/B012HUYAFG\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1510626008&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=One+God+and+Christ%3A+The+Five+Theological+Orations+and+Two+Letters+to+Cledonius%2C\">St. Gregory of Nazianzus, <em>One God and Christ: The Five Theological Orations and Two Letters to Cledonius,<\/em> trans. Williams &amp; Wickham<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.lulu.com\/shop\/various-authors\/sixteen-american-unitarian-tracts\/paperback\/product-3871427.html\"><strong><em>16 American Unitarian Tracts<\/em><\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-and-his-son-the-logic-of-the-new-testament\/\">God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 184 \u2013 Where did Jesus say \u201cI am God, worship me\u201d?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-184-where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me\/\">podcast 184 \u2013 Where did Jesus say \u201cI am God, worship me\u201d?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 183 \u2013 Challenge Unmet\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-183-challenge-unmet\/\"><strong>podcast 183 \u2013 Challenge Unmet<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 166 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-166-alvan-lamsons-on-the-doctrine-of-two-natures-in-jesus-christ-part-2\/\">podcast 166 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 165 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-165-alvan-lamsons-on-the-doctrine-of-two-natures-in-jesus-christ-part-1\/\">podcast 165 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 156 \u2013 Dr. J.R. Daniel Kirk on A Man Attested by God \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-156-dr-j-r-daniel-kirk-on-a-man-attested-by-god-part-2\/\">podcast 156 \u2013 Dr. J.R. Daniel Kirk on A Man Attested by God \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 155 \u2013 Dr. J.R. Daniel Kirk on A Man Attested by God \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-155-dr-j-r-daniel-kirk-on-a-man-attested-by-god-part-1\/\">podcast 155 \u2013 Dr. J.R. Daniel Kirk on A Man Attested by God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 146 \u2013 Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-146-jesus-exemplar-faith-new-testament\/\"><strong>podcast 146 \u2013 Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 116 \u2013 George R. Noyes\u2019s Explanation of Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-116-george-r-noyess-explanation-of-isaiah-96-and-john-11\/\">podcast 116 \u2013 George R. Noyes\u2019s Explanation of Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 86 \u2013 Kermit Zarley on distinguishing Jesus and God\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-86-kermit-zarley-on-distinguishing-jesus-and-god\/\">podcast 86 \u2013 Kermit Zarley on distinguishing Jesus and God<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-70-the-one-god-and-his-son-according-to-john\/\"><strong>podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 66 \u2013 Before Abraham was\u2026 what?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-66-before-abraham-was-what\/\">podcast 66 \u2013 Before Abraham was\u2026 what?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 63 \u2013 Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-63-thomas-belsham-and-other-scholars-on-john-858\/\">podcast 63 \u2013 Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-62-dr-dustin-smith-on-the-preexistence-of-jesus-in-the-gospel-of-john\/\"><strong>podcast 62 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 61 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-61-dr-dustin-smith-on-preexistence-in-ancient-jewish-thought\/\">podcast 61 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 22 \u2013 a cure for odium theologicum\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-22-a-cure-for-odium-theologicum\/\">podcast 22 \u2013 a cure for odium theologicum<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 16 \u2013 How is Jesus \u201cthe one Lord\u201d?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-16-how-is-jesus-the-one-lord\/\">podcast 16 \u2013 How is Jesus \u201cthe one Lord\u201d?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 15 \u2013 Are Paul\u2019s \u201cone God\u201d and \u201cone Lord\u201d one and the same?\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-15-are-pauls-one-god-and-one-lord-one-and-the-same\/\">podcast 15 \u2013 Are Paul\u2019s \u201cone God\u201d and \u201cone Lord\u201d one and the same?<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 14 \u2013 One God, One Lord, Two Interpretations\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-14-one-god-one-lord-two-interpretations\/\">podcast 14 \u2013 One God, One Lord, Two Interpretations<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Andy_G_Cohen\/MUL__DIV_1198\/Andy_G_Cohen_-_MULDIV_-_06_-_Space_Full\">Space (Full)<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Andy_G_Cohen\/\">Andy G. Cohen<\/a>.<\/strong><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&#8220;Of myself, I can do nothing.&#8221; Is this claim about Jesus&#8217;s self\/person, or only about his &#8220;human nature&#8221;?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":39737,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,16,15,6,14,57,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-39736","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-complaints","category-history","category-podcast","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39736","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=39736"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39736\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":39760,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39736\/revisions\/39760"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/39737"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=39736"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=39736"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=39736"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}