{"id":39902,"date":"2018-01-22T23:37:53","date_gmt":"2018-01-23T04:37:53","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=39902"},"modified":"2018-01-22T23:37:53","modified_gmt":"2018-01-23T04:37:53","slug":"podcast-211-johannes-grossl-embedded-sempiternalism-theological-models-beyond-presentism-and-eternalism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-211-johannes-grossl-embedded-sempiternalism-theological-models-beyond-presentism-and-eternalism\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 211 &#8211; Johannes Gr\u00f6ssl &#8211; Embedded Sempiternalism &#8211; Theological Models beyond Presentism and Eternalism"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8946\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-39902-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities211.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities211.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities211.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities211.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=39902-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities211.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities211.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-39909\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-1-450x112.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"112\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-1-450x112.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-1-768x190.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-1-1024x254.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-1.jpg 1061w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><strong>Dr. Johannes Gr\u00f6ssl<\/strong> is a a Systematic Theologian and Philosopher of Religion at the University of Siegen in Germany.<\/p>\n<p>In this <strong>cutting-edge talk he explores four of what he calls in-between views on God and time,<\/strong> discussing work by philosophers including Dean Zimmerman, and William Lane Craig, among others.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-39910\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2a-450x113.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"113\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2a-450x113.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2a-768x193.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2a-1024x258.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2a.jpg 1033w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/p>\n<p><strong>Did God wait<\/strong> around for an infinitely long time before creating? Or does he exist in <strong>his own undifferentiated time<\/strong> &#8220;prior to&#8221; creating?<\/p>\n<p>Dr. Gr\u00f6ssl takes as his starting point here <strong>the Aristotelian idea that time is a measure of change<\/strong>, so that to be in time is to change and vice-versa. As he sees it, the fundamental theological issue here is <strong>whether or not God can change<\/strong> &#8211; whether or not he is absolutely, essentially, intrinsically immutable in all respects, as mainstream catholic traditions assert.<\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-39911\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2b-450x135.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"135\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2b-450x135.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2b-768x231.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2b-1024x308.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-2b.jpg 1025w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/>If I understand him, he disagrees with such strong claims, because God must be able to act in time and to respond to us, and because biblical claims that God is unchanging mean only that God&#8217;s character is something we can completely rely on, that he can only be faithful to his covenants.<\/p>\n<p><strong>In these charts from his presentation slides<\/strong>, the top, dark line represents God&#8217;s time, that is, the series of changes he undergoes. This series is distinct from\u00a0 the series of changes in creation, in the cosmos God has made, and in models 2b and 3, also from (created) time itself.<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-39914\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-3-450x157.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"157\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-3-450x157.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-3-768x269.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-3-1024x358.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/model-3.jpg 1069w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dropbox.com\/s\/50jnkrqzjymw6yp\/Johannes%20Gr%C3%B6ssl%20%202017%20-%20Embedded%20Sempiternalism%202.pdf?dl=0\"><strong>Dr. Gr\u00f6ssl&#8217;s slides for this presentation<\/strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-full wp-image-39908\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Johannes-Grossel.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"374\" height=\"435\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.uni-siegen.de\/phil\/kaththeo\/mitarbeiter\/groessl_johannes\/index.html.en\">Dr.\u00a0 Gr\u00f6ssl&#8217;s professional home page<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/uni-siegen.academia.edu\/groessl\">Dr.\u00a0Gr\u00f6ssl&#8217;s papers @ Academia.edu<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/s-p-o-t.weebly.com\/god-and-time.html\">God and Time Workshop<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/s-p-o-t.weebly.com\/\">Society for Philosophy of Time<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/fas-philosophy.rutgers.edu\/zimmerman\/index1.htm\">Dean Zimmerman&#8217;s home page<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Zimmerman, &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/fas-philosophy.rutgers.edu\/zimmerman\/Presentism%20and%20Rel.for.Web.2.pdf\">Presentism and the Space-Time Manifold<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li>Zimmerman, &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/fas-philosophy.rutgers.edu\/zimmerman\/PrivilegedPresent.pdf\">The Privileged Present: Defending an &#8216;A-theory&#8217; of Time<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li>William Lane Craig, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.reasonablefaith.org\/writings\/popular-writings\/existence-nature-of-god\/god-time-and-eternity1\/\">God, Time, and Eternity<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li>Alan Rhoda, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/272390\/Presentism_Truthmakers_and_God\">Presentism, Truthmakers, and God<\/a>&#8220;<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/simun_mathewson\/Circuit\/Scuba\">Scuba<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/simun_mathewson\/\">Simun Mathewson<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is God in one sense &#8220;in&#8221; time and in another sense &#8220;outside of&#8221; time?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":39914,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[75,9,57,76],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-39902","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-divine-attributes","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-roman-catholicism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39902","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=39902"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39902\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":39922,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39902\/revisions\/39922"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/39914"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=39902"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=39902"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=39902"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}