{"id":39994,"date":"2018-02-19T09:06:25","date_gmt":"2018-02-19T14:06:25","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=39994"},"modified":"2018-02-21T09:39:48","modified_gmt":"2018-02-21T14:39:48","slug":"podcast-215-two-intelligent-responses-to-my-challenge","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-215-two-intelligent-responses-to-my-challenge\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 215 &#8211; Two Intelligent Responses to My Challenge"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8957\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-39994-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities215.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities215.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities215.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities215.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=39994-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities215.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities215.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-39999\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/nice-try-noobs-342x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"342\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/nice-try-noobs-342x450.jpg 342w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/nice-try-noobs.jpg 600w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 342px) 100vw, 342px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>Do you say that a or <em>the<\/em> main point of the New Testament is <strong>that &#8220;Jesus is God,&#8221;<\/strong> like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=t7fh4wmhhtU\">David Wood<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/www.cbn.com\/special\/apologetics\/articles\/Koukl_must_we_believe_jesus_is_God.aspx\">Greg Koukl<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=gHFecSfT9CI\">J. Warner Wallace<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=zldiimax9eU&amp;t=8s\">Ravi Zacharias<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/christianforums.net\/Fellowship\/index.php?threads\/top-ten-reasons-to-believe-that-jesus-is-god.9435\/\">Robert M. Bowman Jr.<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/scotmcknight\/status\/965375395628486659\">Scot McKnight?<\/a><\/p>\n<p>If so, <strong>how you evaluate this argument<\/strong>? Do you agree with each premise? Do you agree that each conclusion follows from what went before?<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>God and Jesus differ.<\/li>\n<li>Things which differ are two (i.e. are not numerically identical)<\/li>\n<li>Therefore,\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesus-god-and-an-inconsistent-triad\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">God and Jesus are two (not numerically identical).<\/a> (1, 2)<\/li>\n<li>For any x and y, x and y are the same god only if x and y are <em>not<\/em> two (i.e. <em>are<\/em> numerically identical).<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, God and Jesus are not the same god. (3,4)<\/li>\n<li>There is only one god.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, either God is not a god, or Jesus is not a god. (5, 6)<\/li>\n<li>God is a god.<\/li>\n<li>Therefore, Jesus is not a god. (7,8)<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">I have argued<\/a> that this argument is sound, and that <strong>all thinking Christians ought to accept it<\/strong> as such, thus accepting its conclusion. The only ways out are denying at least one of the premises: 1, 2, 4, 6, or 8. But 1, 6, and 8 are implied by the Bible, and 2 and 4 seem to be self-evident truths.<\/p>\n<p>With very few exceptions, evangelical apologists who urge that &#8220;Jesus is God&#8221; <a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-183-challenge-unmet\/\">have ignored the argument<\/a>. But now, there is a trickle of responses &#8211; and they are by people who <em>do<\/em> understand the argument. In this episode, I interact with their comments on it. One fusses at the language I use in the argument, while the other urges that it badly <strong>begs the question<\/strong> by employing a premise which any (trinitarian) Christian has to deny.<\/p>\n<p>Is he right?<\/p>\n<p>[spp-tweet tweet=&#8221;Has the Challenge to Jesus is God Apologists been met?&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><em><strong>Corrections<\/strong>: towards the end I mention NT passages which say or plainly assume that the Father is Jesus&#8217;s God. I should have said Romans 15:6 (not 15:16) &#8211; and I&#8217;m not sure how I included Eph 3:13 (only Eph 1:3 and 1:17 are explicit here). Thanks to Jim Seward in the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/trinities\">trinities podcast Facebook group<\/a> for the corrections!<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/theskepticalzone.com\/wp\/dale-tuggys-trinitarian-challenge\/comment-page-1\/#comment-214550\">Dale Tuggy\u2019s Trinitarian challenge \u2013 and a survey<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/beginningofwisdomblog.wordpress.com\/2017\/11\/08\/dale-tuggys-challenge\/\">Dale Tuggy&#8217;s Challenge<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\"><strong>podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-40003\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/right-you-know-450x345.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"406\" height=\"311\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/right-you-know-450x345.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/right-you-know.jpg 528w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 406px) 100vw, 406px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-in-the-challenge\/\">\u201cGod\u201d in the Challenge argument<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/dr-james-andersons-brief-response-challenge\/\">On Dr. James Anderson\u2019s \u201cBrief Response\u201d to the Challenge<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-case-of-progressive-revelation\/\">a case of progressive revelation<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-183-challenge-unmet\/\">podcast 183 \u2013 Challenge Unmet<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/journal.rts.edu\/review\/no-god-one-allah-jesus-former-muslim-investigates-evidence-islam-christianity\/\">James Anderson&#8217;s review<\/a> of Nabeel Qureshi, <em>No God but One: Allah or Jesus? A Former Muslim Investigates the Evidence for Islam and Christianity<\/em><\/li>\n<li>John 10:30; 1 Corinthians 3:8.<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is <strong>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Josh_Woodward\/The_Wake_1790\/JoshWoodward-TheWake-NoVox-09-LittleTomcat\">Little Tomcat (Instrumental Version).<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.joshwoodward.com\/\">joshwoodward.com<\/a>)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Have either of two philosophically astute bloggers refuted the Challenge to &#8220;Jesus is God&#8221; Apologists?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":39999,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,15,9,57,13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-39994","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-christology","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theologians"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39994","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=39994"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39994\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40011,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/39994\/revisions\/40011"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/39999"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=39994"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=39994"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=39994"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}