{"id":40503,"date":"2018-07-16T21:57:47","date_gmt":"2018-07-17T01:57:47","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=40503"},"modified":"2018-07-16T21:58:58","modified_gmt":"2018-07-17T01:58:58","slug":"podcast-235-the-case-against-preexistence","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-235-the-case-against-preexistence\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 235 &#8211; The Case Against Preexistence"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1716\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-40503-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities235.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities235.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities235.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities235.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=40503-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities235.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities235.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-40506 alignleft\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/case-against-pre-ex-450x381.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"450\" height=\"381\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/case-against-pre-ex-450x381.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/case-against-pre-ex.png 734w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><strong>&#8220;Preexistence&#8221; here means that there was a pre-human stage in the man Jesus&#8217;s life.<\/strong> Such a thing is never clearly and directly asserted anywhere in the New Testament, although following a long-established traditions of interpretation, many readers claim to find this idea in a few famous passages. It is <strong>a doctrine of inference<\/strong>. And those inferences can be questioned.<\/p>\n<p>In this presentation, I first distinguish between <strong>several related theses<\/strong> about Jesus&#8217;s alleged pre-human career. I then discuss how various people try to deal with perceived differences between the various NT book on these issues.<\/p>\n<p>I briefly argue that <strong>in the NT, it is the Father, not Jesus who is the creator<\/strong> of the heavens and the earth. Thus, one can&#8217;t show that Jesus had a pre-human career by showing that he is a (or the) creator.<\/p>\n<p>I then discuss several <strong>well-known, observable linguistic phenomena in the NT which give rise to preexistence &#8220;fool&#8217;s gold.&#8221;<\/strong> I briefly engage here with Simon Gathercole&#8217;s <em>The Preexistent Son: Recovering the Christologies of Matthew, Mark, and Luke<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>I finish explaining <strong>why things we all know about human beings, when combined with <em>clear and explicit<\/em> NT teaching<\/strong> about Jesus, should push us to look for plausible, contextual readings of the various NT texts which don&#8217;t involve literal pre-human existence for the man Jesus. I think that there are the needed readings, but I don&#8217;t go much into those here.<\/p>\n<p>Because of my 50+ slides, I recommend this YouTube version:<\/p>\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The Case against Preexistence  - trinities podcast 235\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/dWDN_Zp-xZk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/user\/AbrahamicMovement\">Restoration Fellowship YouTube channel<strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-40507\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dale-Tuggy-May-2018-450x422.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"374\" height=\"351\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dale-Tuggy-May-2018-450x422.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Dale-Tuggy-May-2018.png 600w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 374px) 100vw, 374px\" \/><\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/s6wK-lRZP-k\">Clarifying Catholic Christologies<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 119 \u2013 The Son of God 3 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith\u2019s \u201cSocinian\u201d view of Jesus\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-119-the-son-of-god-3-dr-dustin-smiths-socinian-view-of-jesus\/\"><strong>podcast 119 \u2013 The Son of God 3 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith\u2019s \u201cSocinian\u201d view of Jesus<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 118 \u2013 The Son of God 2 \u2013 Mr. Danny Andre Dixon\u2019s \u201cArian\u201d view of Jesus\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-118-the-son-of-god-2-mr-danny-andre-dixons-arian-view-of-jesus\/\">podcast 118 \u2013 The Son of God 2 \u2013 Mr. Danny Andre Dixon\u2019s \u201cArian\u201d view of Jesus<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 117 \u2013 The Son of God 1 \u2013 Dr. Lee Irons\u2019s trinitarian view of Jesus\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-117-the-son-of-god-1-dr-lee-ironss-trinitarian-view-of-jesus\/\">podcast 117 \u2013 The Son of God 1 \u2013 Dr. Lee Irons\u2019s trinitarian view of Jesus<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Proverbs 18:17, Mark 10:6, Mark 13:19, Romans 1:20, Acts 4:24, Acts 14:15, Acts 17:24, Acts 17:26, Hebrews 11:3, Ephesians 3:9, 1 Timothy 4:3-4, Revelation 4:11, 10:6, 14:7, Genesis 1:24, John 1:3, John 1:10, Hebrews 1:2, Revelation 3:14, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:15-18, Ephesians 3:9, John 17:5, John 17:22-26, Luke 1:19, Luke 1:26; Acts 12:11, Revelation 5:6, Revelation 22:6, Revelation 22:16, Galatians 4:6, Mark 1:38, Luke 4:43, James 1:17, Matthew 21:24-26, John 1:6, John 1:33, John 3:28; John 8:42, John 17:8, John 17:23, John 17:25, John 20:31, John 10:36, Matthew 1:1, Matthew 9:27, Matthew 12:23, Matthew 15:22, Matthew 20:30-31, Matthew 21:9,15, Matthew 22:42-45, John 1:9, John 1:14, Philippians 2, 2 Corinthians 8:9, 1 Timothy 3:16.<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kai_Engel\/Sustains\/Kai_Engel_-_Sustains_-_08_Global_Warming\">Global Warming<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Kai_Engel\/\">Kai Engel<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Some reasons why we should think that the New Testament writers don&#8217;t believe that Jesus literally existed before his time in the womb.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":40507,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,15,33,9,57,36,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-40503","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-christology","category-incarnation","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-stories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40503","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=40503"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40503\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40512,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40503\/revisions\/40512"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/40507"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=40503"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=40503"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=40503"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}