{"id":40583,"date":"2018-09-18T01:32:26","date_gmt":"2018-09-18T05:32:26","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=40583"},"modified":"2018-09-18T01:42:19","modified_gmt":"2018-09-18T05:42:19","slug":"podcast-238-dialogue-with-a-catholic-listener","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-238-dialogue-with-a-catholic-listener\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 238 &#8211; Dialogue with a Catholic Listener"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9553\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-40583-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities238.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities238.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities238.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities238.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=40583-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities238.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities238.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p>In July I was honored to receive <strong>a long and detailed letter from a Catholic listener<\/strong> &#8211; one who was raised in a biblical unitarian denomination &#8211; <a href=\"http:\/\/ekirkross.com\/\">Mr. Kirk Ross<\/a>, an estate planning attorney and\u00a0 author. He confronts me on a number of issues and lodges several complaints.<\/p>\n<p>He writes, in part,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-40584 alignright\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apostle-1701732_1280-1024x682.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"455\" height=\"303\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apostle-1701732_1280-1024x682.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apostle-1701732_1280-450x300.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apostle-1701732_1280-768x512.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/apostle-1701732_1280.jpg 1280w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 455px) 100vw, 455px\" \/>You make a very big deal out of <strong>the fact that different philosophers interpret traditional Trinitarian creedal language differently<\/strong>, i.e. there are multiple &#8220;Trinity theories.&#8221; &#8230;I think you are trying to imply that they must all, therefore, be wrong.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>And later,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Rhetorically, <strong>you refer to Biblical Unitarianism as if it were some sort of monolithic theological view<\/strong> (as opposed to the fractured views of the Trinity). That is quite wrong&#8230; Your type of Unitarianism (even if it was present in the first century, which I do not necessarily grant) is awfully hard to find among the church Fathers (if it is there at all).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>And,<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Quite bluntly, the doctrine of <strong>sola scriptura is logically inconsistent<\/strong> and cannot be right.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>In this episode, I read his entire letter and respond section by section. I acknowledge some good points, correct some mistaken impressions, and in some cases argue back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/ekirkross.com\">Kirk Ross Online<\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=7VwXPDqzT_s&amp;t=3s\"><strong>Journey Home &#8211; 2016-03-21 &#8211; Kirk Ross<\/strong><\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-40585\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/martin-luther-617287_1280.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"314\" height=\"453\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/martin-luther-617287_1280.jpg 591w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/martin-luther-617287_1280-312x450.jpg 312w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 314px) 100vw, 314px\" \/><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.tributes.com\/obituary\/show\/Kent-H.-Ross-103420970\">Kent H. Ross<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/sethoross\">Seth Ross<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/2017\/04\/02\/interview-16-church-of-god-vision-seth-ross\/\">Restitutio Interview 16: Church of God Vision (Seth Ross)<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/coggc.org\/\">Church of God General Conference<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/hgcnashville.org\/\">Higher Ground Church<\/a><\/li>\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.what-is-the-trinity.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>What is the Trinity?<\/em><\/a><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\">&#8220;Trinity&#8221;<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-232-trinity-club-orientation\/\">podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 92 \u2013 Dr. Joshua Thurow on objections to atonement theories\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-92-dr-joshua-thurow-on-objections-to-atonement-theories\/\">podcast 92 \u2013 Dr. Joshua Thurow on objections to atonement theories<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 91 \u2013 Dr. Joshua Thurow on theories of the atonement\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-91-dr-joshua-thurow-on-theories-of-the-atonement\/\">podcast 91 \u2013 Dr. Joshua Thurow on theories of the atonement<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-6-get-a-date-part-2\/\"><strong>10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #6 get a date \u2013 part 2<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 229 \u2013 Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-229-buzzard-and-hurtado-on-god-and-jesus-part-2\/\">podcast 229 \u2013 Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 228 \u2013 Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-228-buzzard-and-hurtado-on-god-and-jesus-part-1\/\">podcast 228 \u2013 Buzzard and Hurtado on God and Jesus \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 44 \u2013 The Spiritual Journey of Sir Anthony Buzzard\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-44-the-spiritual-journey-of-sir-anthony-buzzard\/\">podcast 44 \u2013 The Spiritual Journey of Sir Anthony Buzzard<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblicalunitarian.com\/\">biblicalunitarian.com<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=0Hnlw4iMhE8&amp;t=1600s\">The Lost Early History of Unitarian Christian Theology<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-11-tertullian-the-unitarian\/\"><strong>podcast 11 \u2013 Tertullian the unitarian<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\">How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-40591 alignleft\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/communion-2110404_1920-e1537235873507-835x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"328\" height=\"402\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/communion-2110404_1920-e1537235873507-835x1024.jpg 835w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/communion-2110404_1920-e1537235873507-367x450.jpg 367w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/communion-2110404_1920-e1537235873507-768x942.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/communion-2110404_1920-e1537235873507.jpg 868w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 328px) 100vw, 328px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 176 \u2013 Photinus of Sirmium\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-176-photinus-of-sirmium\/\"><strong>podcast 176 \u2013 Photinus of Sirmium<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 26 \u2013 Pastor Sean Finnegan on \u201cthe Holy Spirit\u201d \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-26-pastor-sean-finnegan-on-the-holy-spirit-part-2\/\">podcast 26 \u2013 Pastor Sean Finnegan on \u201cthe Holy Spirit\u201d \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 25 \u2013 Pastor Sean Finnegan on \u201cthe Holy Spirit\u201d \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-25-pastor-sean-finnegan-about-the-holy-spirit-part-1\/\">podcast 25 \u2013 Pastor Sean Finnegan on \u201cthe Holy Spirit\u201d \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 24 \u2013 How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-24-how-to-be-a-monotheistic-trinitarian\/\">podcast 24 \u2013 How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 119 \u2013 The Son of God 3 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith\u2019s \u201cSocinian\u201d view of Jesus\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-119-the-son-of-god-3-dr-dustin-smiths-socinian-view-of-jesus\/\">podcast 119 \u2013 The Son of God 3 \u2013 Dr. Dustin Smith\u2019s \u201cSocinian\u201d view of Jesus<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=s6wK-lRZP-k\"><strong>Clarifying Catholic Christologies<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 126 \u2013 What is an evangelical? With Kermit Zarley\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-126-what-is-an-evangelical-with-kermit-zarley\/\">podcast 126 \u2013 What is an evangelical? With Kermit Zarley<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 125 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman\u2019s \u201cWhat about This View?\u201d\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-125-dr-robert-m-bowmans-what-about-this-view\/\">podcast 125 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman\u2019s \u201cWhat about This View?\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 85 \u2013 Heretic! Four Approaches to Dropping H-Bombs\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-85-heretic-four-approaches-to-dropping-h-bombs\/\"><strong>podcast 85 \u2013 Heretic! Four Approaches to Dropping H-Bombs<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/George_Blaurock\">George Blaurock<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/2017\/11\/30\/120-biblical-unitarian-trailblazers-of-the-16th-century-five-hundred-5\/\">Restitutio 120 Biblical Unitarian Trailblazers of the 16th Century (Five Hundred 5)<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-235-the-case-against-preexistence\/\">podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/orthodoxwiki.org\/Seventh_Ecumenical_Council\">Seventh Ecumenical Council<\/a><\/li>\n<li><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Eunuchs-Kingdom-Heaven-Sexuality-Catholic\/dp\/B000NVGTGK\/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&amp;qid=1537234099&amp;sr=8-1\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven : Women, Sexuality, and The Catholic Church<\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.peterkreeft.com\/home.htm\">Peter Kreeft<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Roman-but-Not-Catholic-Reformation-ebook\/dp\/B06XBZVR85\/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1520898315&amp;sr=8-1-fkmr0&amp;keywords=jerry+walls+neither+roman\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-40072 size-medium\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/roman-but-not-catholic-300x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/roman-but-not-catholic-300x450.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/roman-but-not-catholic-768x1151.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/roman-but-not-catholic-683x1024.jpg 683w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/roman-but-not-catholic.jpg 850w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.scotthahn.com\/\">Scott Hahn<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 166 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-166-alvan-lamsons-on-the-doctrine-of-two-natures-in-jesus-christ-part-2\/\">podcast 166 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 165 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-165-alvan-lamsons-on-the-doctrine-of-two-natures-in-jesus-christ-part-1\/\">podcast 165 \u2013 Alvan Lamson\u2019s On the Doctrine of Two Natures in Jesus Christ \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 144 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-144-dr-timothy-pawls-defense-conciliar-christology-part-2\/\">podcast 144 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 143 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-143-dr-timothy-pawls-in-defense-of-conciliar-christology-part-1\/\"><strong>podcast 143 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 1<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 223 \u2013 Self-evident truths relevant to Trinity or Incarnation theories \u2013 Part 2\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-223-self-evident-truths-relevant-to-trinity-or-incarnation-theories-part-2\/\">podcast 223 \u2013 Self-evident truths relevant to Trinity or Incarnation theories \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 222 \u2013 Self-evident truths relevant to Trinity or Incarnation theories \u2013 Part 1\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-222-self-evident-truths-relevant-to-trinity-or-incarnation-theories-part-1\/\">podcast 222 \u2013 Self-evident truths relevant to Trinity or Incarnation theories \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a title=\"podcast 218 \u2013 Dr. Jerry Walls on Roman Catholic and Christian Foundational Claims\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-218-dr-jerry-walls-on-roman-catholic-and-christian-foundational-claims\/\"><strong>podcast 218 \u2013 Dr. Jerry Walls on Roman Catholic and Christian Foundational Claims<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=2ARcvXUYSn8&amp;index=55&amp;list=PL0B58AB39400D982E&amp;t=0s\">Richard Swinburne&#8217;s brain division argument for dualism<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Matthew 16:18; Matthew 28:20; John 16:13.<\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Nathaniel_Wyvern\/Sanctuary_of_the__Sky_Gods\/Nathaniel_Wyvern_-_Sanctuary_Of_The_Sky_Gods\">&#8220;Sanctuary of the Sky Gods&#8221;<\/a> by <a href=\"http:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Nathaniel_Wyvern\/\">Nathaniel Wyvern<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&#8220;What bothers me most is the rhetorical move you&#8217;re making with this claim that everyone before Nicea (or so) was a &#8216;Unitarian.'&#8221;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":40584,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,15,6,4,8,57,77,76,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-40583","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-complaints","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-linkage","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-roman-catholicism","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40583","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=40583"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40583\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40600,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40583\/revisions\/40600"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/40584"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=40583"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=40583"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=40583"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}