{"id":40746,"date":"2018-11-19T19:33:29","date_gmt":"2018-11-20T00:33:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=40746"},"modified":"2018-11-19T19:33:29","modified_gmt":"2018-11-20T00:33:29","slug":"podcast-244-response-to-branson-part-2-early-orthodox-trinitarians","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-244-response-to-branson-part-2-early-orthodox-trinitarians\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 244 \u2013 Response to Branson Part 2 \u2013 Early Orthodox Trinitarians"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4374\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-40746-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities244.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities244.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities244.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities244.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=40746-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities244.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities244.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-40747\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gregory_of_Nazianzus_from_Vasilyevskiy_chin_15th_c._GTG-396x450.jpg\" alt=\"Gregory of Nazianzus\" width=\"307\" height=\"349\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gregory_of_Nazianzus_from_Vasilyevskiy_chin_15th_c._GTG-396x450.jpg 396w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gregory_of_Nazianzus_from_Vasilyevskiy_chin_15th_c._GTG-768x873.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gregory_of_Nazianzus_from_Vasilyevskiy_chin_15th_c._GTG-901x1024.jpg 901w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Gregory_of_Nazianzus_from_Vasilyevskiy_chin_15th_c._GTG.jpg 961w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 307px) 100vw, 307px\" \/><\/p>\n<p>Is <strong>the idea of a triune God<\/strong>, a tripersonal God, a Western mistake, something not seen in ancient or early medieval Eastern Orthodoxy? This is the view of Dr. <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=Beau+Branson\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Beau Branson<\/a>, and of Dr. John Behr. Dr. Branson has argued that &#8220;monarchial trinitarianism,&#8221; on which the Father (not the Trinity) is the one God, is the correct understanding of trinitarian tradition, and that this is the sort of theology seen in all pre-modern (or late medieval) Orthodox theologians.<\/p>\n<p>In this episode, <strong>I argue that they are mistaken<\/strong> in this.<\/p>\n<p>While there is no such idea, I agree, in Basil, <strong>it is pretty clearly there in the work of Gregory of Nazianzus<\/strong>, in the ecumenical council from the year 553, and in the work of <strong>John of Damascus<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>This is what one would expect to see, if I am right that this idea of a tripersonal God, the one God as the Trinity, comes into catholic theology, both east and west, in about the last quarter of the fourth century, as a development of what historians call &#8220;Pro-Nicene&#8221; theology, i.e. catholic theology done by partisans of the Nicene creed of 325 (as understood in the latter fourth century).<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.britannica.com\/biography\/Saint-Basil-the-Great\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Basil of Caesarea<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.britannica.com\/biography\/Saint-Gregory-of-Nazianzus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>Gregory of Nazianzus<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Select-Orations-Fathers-Church-Patristic\/dp\/0813227690\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1542664613&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=nazianzus+select+orations\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>Select Orations<\/em><\/a><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.britannica.com\/biography\/Saint-John-of-Damascus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-40749\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/st-john-of-damascus-4-248x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"248\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/st-john-of-damascus-4-248x450.jpg 248w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/st-john-of-damascus-4.jpg 552w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 248px) 100vw, 248px\" \/><\/a><\/em><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/God-Christ-Theological-Cledonius-Patristics\/dp\/0881412406\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1542664548&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=theological+orations\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>On God and Christ: The Five Theological Orations and Two Letters to Cledonius<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/310240.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Oration on Holy Baptism<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/310239.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Oration on the Holy Lights<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/310242.htm\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The Last Farewell in the Presence of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops<\/a><\/li>\n<li>1 Corinthians 8:4-8<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/flocanrib-a-parable\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Flocanrib \u2013 a parable<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/flocanrib-and-the-ambiguity-of-the-word-trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Flocanrib and the ambiguity of the word \u201cTrinity\u201d<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-8-trinity-vs-trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #8 \u2013 trinity vs. Trinity<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.newadvent.org\/fathers\/3812.htm\">Constantinople II (553)<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.britannica.com\/biography\/Saint-John-of-Damascus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>John of Damascus<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Writings-Knowledge-Philosophical-Chapters-Heresies\/dp\/1470149249\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1542665047&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=john+of+damascus\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><em>Writings: The Fount of Knowledge- The Philosophical Chapters, on Heresies, the Orthodox Faith<\/em><\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/JeffSpeed68\/56171\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">28 Aussens@iten<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/people\/JeffSpeed68\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Stefan Kartenberg<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Gregory of Nazianzus and John of Damascus held that the one God is the Trinity.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":40747,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[16,58,88,4,55,9,57,13],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-40746","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-books","category-creeds","category-eastern-orthodoxy","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-holy-spirit","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theologians"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40746","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=40746"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40746\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40759,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40746\/revisions\/40759"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/40747"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=40746"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=40746"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=40746"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}