{"id":40761,"date":"2018-12-04T01:30:09","date_gmt":"2018-12-04T06:30:09","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=40761"},"modified":"2018-12-04T01:30:09","modified_gmt":"2018-12-04T06:30:09","slug":"podcast-245-response-to-branson-part-3-dueling-definitions","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-245-response-to-branson-part-3-dueling-definitions\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 245 \u2013 Response to Branson Part 3 \u2013 Dueling Definitions"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_7707\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-40761-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities245.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities245.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities245.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities245.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=40761-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities245.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities245.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><p><a href=\"https:\/\/la.m.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Fasciculus:Yevgeny_Onegin_by_Repin.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-40766\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Yevgeny_Onegin_by_Repin-cr-450x414.jpg\" alt=\"Yevgeny_Onegin_by_Repin cr\" width=\"450\" height=\"414\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Yevgeny_Onegin_by_Repin-cr-450x414.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Yevgeny_Onegin_by_Repin-cr-768x706.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Yevgeny_Onegin_by_Repin-cr.jpg 795w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/><\/a>In this episode I review our <strong>dueling definitions of the concepts <em>trinitarian<\/em> and <em>unitarian<\/em><\/strong>, explain some criteria for a successful conceptual definition, and argue that Dr. Branson&#8217;s definitions don&#8217;t fare well according to these.<\/p>\n<p>Finally, I defend my definitions against his objections.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dr. Branson\u2019s definitions<\/strong> are:<\/p>\n<p><em>(TB) A <strong>Trinitarian<\/strong> Theology says that:<\/em><br \/>\n<em>(1) There are exactly three divine \u201cpersons\u201d or individuals. Nevertheless,<\/em><br \/>\n<em>(2) There is exactly one God.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>(So, the persons can\u2019t all = the One God).<\/em><br \/>\n<em>(Presumably each one bears some important relation to the one God or has a \u201cclaim\u201d to being called \u201cGod,\u201d but our definition won\u2019t settle how that works.)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>(UB) A <strong>Unitarian<\/strong> Theology says that:<\/em><br \/>\n<em>(1) There is exactly one divine \u201cperson\u201d or individual, and<\/em><br \/>\n<em>(2) There is exactly one God.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>(Presumably these will just be identical, or at least \u201cnumerically one,\u201d but again we won\u2019t rule on that point in our definition.)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>In contrast, in \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/webapp.uibk.ac.at\/ojs2\/index.php\/EJPR\/article\/view\/1693\">Tertullian the unitarian<\/a>,\u201d I say,<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><em>A\u00a0\u2018<strong>trinitarian<\/strong>\u2019 Christian theology says that (1) there is one God (2) which or who in some sense contains or consists of three \u2018persons\u2019, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (3) who are equally divine, and (4) (1)-(3) are eternally the case.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>In contrast, a\u00a0 \u2018<strong>unitarian<\/strong>\u2019 Christian theology asserts that the (1) there is one God, (2) who is numerically identical with the one Jesus called \u2018Father\u2019, (3) and is not numerically identical with anyone else, (4) and (1)-(3) are eternally the case.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-40767\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English-1-450x405.png\" alt=\"Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English\" width=\"450\" height=\"405\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English-1-450x405.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English-1.png 500w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 450px) 100vw, 450px\" \/>At a couple of points I bring up trinitarians who seem to hold a Trinity theory on which all the occurrences of &#8220;is&#8221; in ye olde Trinity shield would be understood as the &#8220;is&#8221; of identity (numerical sameness, =). It&#8217;s not a coherent view, of course.<\/p>\n<p>I also discuss this argument, which I attribute to Dr. Branson:<\/p>\n<p>1. &#8220;<strong>Monarchical trinitarianism<\/strong>&#8221; is the view of the Trinity held by the Cappadocian fathers.<br \/>\n2. The true understanding of the Trinity (or the Triad) is what the Cappadocian fathers held.<br \/>\n3. The true understanding of the Trinity (or the Triad) should be called &#8220;trinitarian.&#8221;<br \/>\n4. Therefore, &#8220;Monarchical trinitarianism&#8221; should be called &#8220;trinitarian.&#8221; (1-3)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/david-kelley-on-how-to-evaluate-definitions\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>David Kelley on How to Evaluate Definitions<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-185-how-to-tell-whether-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">podcast 185 \u2013 How to tell whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-186-how-to-tell-whether-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">podcast 186 \u2013 How to tell whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-73-is-proverbs-8-about-jesus-part-3\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">podcast 73 \u2013 Is Proverbs 8 about Jesus? Part 3<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinitarian-or-unitarian-7-origen-uncensored-dale\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">trinitarian or unitarian? 7 \u2013 Origen uncensored<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-24-how-to-be-a-monotheistic-trinitarian\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><strong>podcast 24 \u2013 How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian<\/strong><\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#OneSel\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">one-self trinitarians<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#ThrSel\">three-self trinitarians<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-232-trinity-club-orientation\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation<\/a><\/li>\n<li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/tobias_weber\/57990\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rescue Me (Instrumental)<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/people\/tobias_weber\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Aussens@iter<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Weighing incompatible definitions of trinitarian theology and unitarian theology.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":40766,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[6,88,4,14,9,57,13,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-40761","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-complaints","category-eastern-orthodoxy","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theologians","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40761","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=40761"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40761\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40774,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40761\/revisions\/40774"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/40766"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=40761"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=40761"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=40761"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}