{"id":40798,"date":"2018-12-10T19:29:41","date_gmt":"2018-12-11T00:29:41","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=40798"},"modified":"2018-12-10T19:29:46","modified_gmt":"2018-12-11T00:29:46","slug":"podcast-246-response-to-branson-part-4-the-shortcomings-of-monarchical-trinitarianism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-246-response-to-branson-part-4-the-shortcomings-of-monarchical-trinitarianism\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 246 &#8211; Response to Branson Part 4 &#8211;  the shortcomings of &#8220;monarchical trinitarianism&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_678\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-40798-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities246.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities246.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities246.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities246.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=40798-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities246.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities246.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><a href=\"https:\/\/commons.wikimedia.org\/wiki\/File:Torki_Holy_Trinity.jpg\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Torki_Holy_Trinity-1.jpg\" alt=\"Polish painting of the three angels of Genesis 18 interpreted as the Trinity.\" class=\"wp-image-40804\" width=\"323\" height=\"465\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Torki_Holy_Trinity-1.jpg 645w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Torki_Holy_Trinity-1-312x450.jpg 312w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 323px) 100vw, 323px\" \/><\/a><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode is the last part of my response to Dr. Beau Branson&#8217;s presentation on the monarchy of the Father (trinities <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"This episode is the last part of my response to Dr. Beau Branson's presentation on the monarchy of the Father -\u00a0 trinities podcast episodes 239-242. Here I leave to one side issues of terminology and historical narrative and focus on the merits of Dr. Branson's account of the Triad. In short, I think it that Dr. Branson's &quot;monarchical trinitarianism&quot; (MT) needs further development, as it leaves pressing, central theological questions unanswered. Along the way I get analytic, explaining how (I believe) Dr. Branson's Triad theory would deal with these four claims, only three of which (as a matter of logic) can be true. (Note: these are just four claims, not an argument with premises and a conclusion.)\n (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcasts\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast episodes 239-242<\/a>). Here I leave aside issues of terminology, historical theologies, and historical narrative, and <strong>focus on the theological merits of Dr. Branson&#8217;s account of the Triad<\/strong>. In short, I think it that &#8220;monarchical trinitarianism&#8221; <strong>(MT) needs further development<\/strong>, as it leaves pressing, central theological questions unanswered. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Along the way I get analytic, explaining <strong>how (I believe) Dr. Branson&#8217;s Triad theory would deal with these four claims<\/strong>, only three of which (as a matter of logic) can be true. (Note: these are just four claims, not an argument with premises and a conclusion.)<br \/><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The Independence Tetrad<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The Son is eternally generated by the Father.<br \/><\/li><li>If a being is generated by     another, it exists because of that other.<br \/><\/li><li>Full divinity implies not existing because of any other.<br \/><\/li><li>The Son is fully divine.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The interesting thing about these four claims is that<strong> they can&#8217;t all be true<\/strong>. If the Son is eternally generated and so exists because of the Father, whereas full deity requires not existing because of any other, then the Son is not divine. (1 &amp; 2 &amp; 3 imply the falsity of 4.) If to be generated is to be caused, and full deity requires not being caused by any other, and the Son enjoys full deity, then the Son can&#8217;t have been caused by the Father. (2 &amp; 3 &amp; 4 imply the falsity of 1.) If they Son is fully divine, so doesn&#8217;t exist because of any other, and if he was generated, then it must be false that if a being is generated, it is caused to exist by another. (1 &amp; 3 &amp; 4 imply the falsity of 2.) Finally, if the Son is generated and so exists because of another, and he&#8217;s fully divine, then full divinity must <em>not <\/em>require not existing because of any other. (1 &amp; 2 &amp; 4 imply the falsity of 3.) What is a thinking Christian to do? <strong>Which should be denied? <\/strong>One would think, the one which we have the least reason to believe. Which is that? <br \/><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I also offer Dr. Branson (really, all thinking Christians) the following argument, which starts with the Nicene claim that the Son is the same in essence\/substance as the Father, and ends with a denial of monotheism. It&#8217;s not an argument I assert. Rather, it seems to me that <strong>any decently developed Christian theology ought to tell us which premise or premises should be denied<\/strong>. (It is, rightly, a rare Christian theology indeed which would simply accept the argument as sound!)<br \/><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The Argument from Nicene Theology vs. Monotheism<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"225\" height=\"225\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/can-you-count.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-40820\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/can-you-count.jpg 225w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/can-you-count-150x150.jpg 150w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 225px) 100vw, 225px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Jesus is divine (has the essential quality of divinity). (Premise)<\/li><li>&nbsp;If something has the essential quality divinity, it is a god. (Premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, Jesus is a god. (1,2)<\/li><li>The Father is divine. (Premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, the Father is a god. (2,4)<\/li><li>Jesus and the Father are either the same god, or they are two different gods. (Premise)<\/li><li>If Jesus and the Father were the same god, they could not differ in any way. (Premise)<\/li><li>But the Father and Son do differ. (Premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, Jesus and the Father are not the same god. (7,8)<\/li><li>Therefore, Jesus and the Father are different gods. (6,9)<\/li><li>Therefore, there are at least two gods. (10)<\/li><li>Therefore, monotheism is false. (11)<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When it comes to the above argument, I deny 1, because of the New Testament. <strong>Which does Dr. Branson deny? <\/strong>Which do <em>you <\/em>deny, Mr. or Ms. Thinking Christian? Let us know in the comments below or in the Facebook group. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thanks again to Dr. Branson; he&#8217;s a friend to me and to the podcast, and I hope we will have him on again.<br \/><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-beau-751x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-40821\" width=\"304\" height=\"414\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-beau-751x1024.jpg 751w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-beau-330x450.jpg 330w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-beau-768x1047.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-beau.jpg 1435w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 304px) 100vw, 304px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Information on Dale's upcoming debate with Dr. Michael Brown. \n?21stcr.org?Restitutio?all branson eps?iron sharpens iron \n (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/brown-tuggy-debate-jan-11\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Information on Dale&#8217;s upcoming debate with Dr. Michael Brown<\/strong><\/a><strong>. <\/strong><br \/><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/21stcr.org\/\" target=\"_blank\">21st Century Reformation website<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Information on Dale's upcoming debate with Dr. Michael Brown. \n?21st Century Reformation website?Restitutio podcast\n?all branson eps?iron sharpens iron \n (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/\" target=\"_blank\">Restitutio podcast<\/a><br \/><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Information on Dale's upcoming debate with Dr. Michael Brown. \n?21st Century Reformation website?Restitutio podcast\n?podcast episodes by or about Dr. Branson\n?iron sharpens iron \n (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=Branson\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>podcast episodes by or about Dr. Beau Branson<\/strong><\/a><br \/><\/li><li>Proverbs 27:17<br \/><\/li><li>&#8220;social&#8221; Trinity theories<br \/><ul><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-231-swinburnes-social-theory-of-the-trinity\/\">podcast 231 \u2013 Swinburne\u2019s Social Theory of the Trinity<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-57-richard-swinburne-on-the-trinity\/\">podcast 57 \u2013 Richard Swinburne on the Trinity<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-28-interview-with-dr-william-hasker-about-his-metaphysics-and-the-tripersonal-god-part-2\/\">podcast 28 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 2<\/a>  <\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-27-interview-with-dr-william-hasker-about-his-metaphysics-and-the-tripersonal-god-part-1\/\">podcast 27 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 1<\/a>  <\/li><\/ul><\/li><li><strong>Samuel Clarke, <\/strong><em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Information on Dale's upcoming debate with Dr. Michael Brown. \n?21st Century Reformation website?Restitutio podcast\n?podcast episodes by or about Dr. Branson\n?Proverbs 27:17\n?&quot;social&quot; Trinity theories\n?podcast 231 \u2013 Swinburne\u2019s Social Theory of the Trinity?podcast 57 \u2013 Richard Swinburne on the Trinity?podcast 28 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 2  ?podcast 27 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 1  ?Samuel Clarke, The Scripture Doctrine of the Trinity\n?immortal died ep?challenge ep?This week's thinking music is &quot;Toddler\u00a0 Guitarist&quot; by Admiral Bob.\n (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/www.lulu.com\/shop\/samuel-clarke\/the-scripture-doctrine-of-the-trinity-and-related-writings\/paperback\/product-3787826.html\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>The Scripture Doctrine of the Trinity<\/strong><\/a><\/em><br \/><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Information on Dale's upcoming debate with Dr. Michael Brown. \n?21st Century Reformation website?Restitutio podcast\n?podcast episodes by or about Dr. Branson\n?iron sharpens iron ?&quot;social&quot; Trinity theories\n?Swinburne eps?Hasker eps?Clarke lulu?immortal died ep?challenge ep?This week's thinking music is &quot;Toddler\u00a0 Guitarist&quot; by Admiral Bob.\n (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/admiralbob77\/58311\" target=\"_blank\">Toddler Guitarist<\/a>&#8221; by Admiral Bob.<br \/><\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is &#8220;monarchical trinitarianism&#8221; theologically viable?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":40804,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[88,38,9,57,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-40798","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-eastern-orthodoxy","category-monotheism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40798","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=40798"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40798\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":40829,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/40798\/revisions\/40829"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/40804"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=40798"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=40798"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=40798"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}