{"id":41302,"date":"2019-05-13T23:55:32","date_gmt":"2019-05-14T03:55:32","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=41302"},"modified":"2019-05-13T23:58:56","modified_gmt":"2019-05-14T03:58:56","slug":"podcast-261-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian-response-to-bowman","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-261-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian-response-to-bowman\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 261 &#8211; How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian &#8211; Response to Bowman"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5465\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-41302-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities261.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities261.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities261.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities261.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=41302-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities261.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities261.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Westminster-Assembly-painting.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41314\" width=\"413\" height=\"264\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Westminster-Assembly-painting.jpg 944w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Westminster-Assembly-painting-450x287.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Westminster-Assembly-painting-768x491.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 413px) 100vw, 413px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode I <strong>reply to Dr. Bowman&#8217;s critique<\/strong> of my presentation from <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-260-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 160 (opens in a new tab)\">podcast 160<\/a>, in <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"this blog post (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/robertbowman.net\/2019\/04\/17\/dale-tuggy-and-the-biblical-basis-of-the-trinity-part-1-are-essential-elements-missing\/\" target=\"_blank\">this blog post<\/a> and <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"this one (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/robertbowman.net\/2019\/04\/18\/dale-tuggy-and-the-biblical-basis-of-the-trinity-part-2-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-incoherent\/\" target=\"_blank\">this one<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I concede a few points to him, but press him on some others. In particular, I press this matter of the seeming <strong>incoherence of his own Trinity theory<\/strong> (<em>not<\/em> of &#8220;the Trinity,&#8221; i.e. any Trinity theory &#8211; please note that I have <em>never <\/em>claimed to show that). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here below is <strong>the argument I promise to give in this episode<\/strong>, in response to what (based or his responses here) I <em>think <\/em>is his own Trinity theory. I suggest that he needs to wrestle seriously with this clear and destructive little argument. Here is it, in something close to the symbols used in most university logic classes in recent times (The letters f, g, and s are singular referring terms for the Father, God, and the Son, = expresses numerical identity,  &#8211; means &#8220;not,&#8221; the negation operator of formal logics, and I use &amp; for the &#8220;and&#8221; operator, instead of the more common ^.) Just skip to the next paragraph for the same thing in English, if all these symbols give you a headache.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>f = g                      Premise<\/li><li>s = g                      Premise<\/li><li>g = s                      2 symmetry of =<\/li><li>f = s                       1, 3 transitivity of =<\/li><li>-(f = s)                  Premise  <\/li><li>f = s &amp; -(f = s)      4, 5 &#8211; by the valid inference rule: P, Q therefore P &amp; Q <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here is <strong>the same thing in English<\/strong>, with a bit of explanation out to the right:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The Father just is God.                    Dr. Bowman commits to this<\/li><li>The Son just is God.                         Dr. Bowman commits to this<\/li><li>God just is the Son.                          Follows from 2 because = is symmetrical, so for any a and b, a = b and only if b = a.<\/li><li>The Father just is the Son.             Follows from 1 and 3 because = is transitive, like &gt; or &lt;. So, if the Father just is God (1) and God just is the Son (3), then the Father just is the Son. (4)<\/li><li>It is not the case that the Father just is the Son.    <strong>Dr. Bowman is (implicitly) committed to this by his belief that the Father and Son have differed from one another.<\/strong> The indiscernibility of identicals (aka the distinctness of discernibles) <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"as explained here (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-formulation-of-leibnizs-law-the-indiscernibility-of-identicals\/\" target=\"_blank\">as explained here<\/a> is a self-evident and necessary truth.<\/li><li>The Father just is the Son and it is not the case that the Father just is the Son.                          From 4 and 5. It is always a valid step, when the argument has a premise P and another premise Q, to infer that P &amp; Q.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/spock-logic-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41309\" width=\"295\" height=\"387\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Comment: <strong>6 is a contradiction<\/strong> of the form P &amp; -P (that is, P and not-P). <strong>This shows that not all of 1-5 are true.<\/strong> But 3 and 4 are <em>conclusions<\/em>, properly inferred from what went before. So then one of these premises must be false: 1, 2, 5.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>5 is undeniable<\/strong>, given that the distinctness of discernibles is self-evident, and that given NT claims (or just any Trinity theory!) there are simultaneous (or eternal) differences between the Father and the Son.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This leaves us with 1 and 2. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But<strong> 1 can&#8217;t be denied by the Christian<\/strong>; it is repeatedly and clearly taught in the NT. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>2 is all that&#8217;s left; a Christian must deny 2, <\/strong>for it is never taught in scripture, and its falsity is clearly implied and always assumed in it. This is my way out of the argument: I deny 2. (It is a further question whether the Son is in some sense &#8220;divine.&#8221;)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Does denying 2 mean one can&#8217;t be a trinitarian? Interestingly, no!<\/strong> It just means that you must leave the ranks of<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\" confused &quot;Jesus is God&quot; apologists (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\"> confused &#8220;Jesus is God&#8221; apologists<\/a>, since now you know that Jesus and God should <em>not <\/em>be confused for one another!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It seems to me that if you work carefully through this argument, and <strong>somehow convince yourself <\/strong>that the Father and the Son are each numerically one with God, but not with each other, then you show yourself to be someone who thinks he is<strong> not subject to<\/strong> NT teaching and\/or someone who thinks he is not subject to reason. You&#8217;re throwing out at least one of two crucial sources of truth: clear scriptural teaching, or common sense. Don&#8217;t do it! <\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-game-board-spinner-words-animation_viwyztyyg__F00121-1024x576.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41313\" width=\"323\" height=\"181\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-game-board-spinner-words-animation_viwyztyyg__F00121-1024x576.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-game-board-spinner-words-animation_viwyztyyg__F00121-450x253.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-game-board-spinner-words-animation_viwyztyyg__F00121-768x432.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/your-turn-game-board-spinner-words-animation_viwyztyyg__F00121.png 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 323px) 100vw, 323px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you are a trinitarian apologist, <strong>what is your response<\/strong> to the argument above?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Thanks to Dr. Bowman for this thoughtful exchange of views.<\/strong> Whenever he is able, I would ask him to respond to the argument above, saying which premise he denies and why.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/philpapers.org\/s\/Dale%20Tuggy\" target=\"_blank\">Works by Dale Tuggy @ PhilPapers<\/a><\/li><li><strong>Bowman, &#8220;<\/strong><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Dale Tuggy and the Biblical Basis of the Trinity, Part 1: Are Essential Elements Missing? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/robertbowman.net\/2019\/04\/17\/dale-tuggy-and-the-biblical-basis-of-the-trinity-part-1-are-essential-elements-missing\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Dale Tuggy and the Biblical Basis of the Trinity, Part 1: Are Essential Elements Missing?<\/strong><\/a><strong>&#8220;<\/strong><\/li><li><strong>Bowman, &#8220;<\/strong><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Dale Tuggy and the Biblical Basis of the Trinity, Part 2: Is the Doctrine of the Trinity Incoherent? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/robertbowman.net\/2019\/04\/18\/dale-tuggy-and-the-biblical-basis-of-the-trinity-part-2-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-incoherent\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Dale Tuggy and the Biblical Basis of the Trinity, Part 2: Is the Doctrine of the Trinity Incoherent?<\/strong><\/a><strong>&#8220;<\/strong><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-260-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian<\/a><\/li><li>Bowman  \u201c<a href=\"http:\/\/bib.irr.org\/series\/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity\">The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity<\/a>\u201d  <\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 107 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-107-dr-robert-m-bowman-jr-on-triadic-new-testament-passages-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 107 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 108 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 2 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-108-dr-robert-m-bowman-jr-on-triadic-new-testament-passages-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 108 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman Jr. on triadic New Testament passages \u2013 part 2<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 125 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman\u2019s \u201cWhat about This View?\u201d  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-125-dr-robert-m-bowmans-what-about-this-view\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 125 \u2013 Dr. Robert M. Bowman\u2019s \u201cWhat about This View?\u201d <\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"The Westminster Confession (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/www.apuritansmind.com\/westminster-standards\/\" target=\"_blank\">The Westminster Confession<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.garbc.org\/about-us\/beliefs-constitution\/articles-of-faith\/\" target=\"_blank\">GARBC Articles of Faith<\/a> (Dr. Bowman&#8217;s denomination)<\/li><li><em><strong>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/strong><\/em><strong>, &#8220;<\/strong><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Trinity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Trinity<\/strong><\/a><strong>&#8220;<\/strong><\/li><li>Tuggy, <em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"What is the Trinity? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.what-is-the-trinity.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">What is the Trinity?<\/a><\/em><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-30-the-council-of-nicea\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 30 \u2013 The Council of Nicea<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"The Orthodox Formulas 2: The Council of Constantinople (381)  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-orthodox-formulas-2-the-council-of-constantinople-381\/\" target=\"_blank\">The Orthodox Formulas 2: The Council of Constantinople (381) <\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"identity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/identity\/\" target=\"_blank\">identity<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"On Numerical Sameness \/ Identity \/ \u201cAbsolute\u201d Identity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/on-numerical-sameness-identity-absolute-identity\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>On Numerical Sameness \/ Identity \/ \u201cAbsolute\u201d Identity<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"A formulation of Leibniz\u2019s Law \/ the Indiscernibility of Identicals (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-formulation-of-leibnizs-law-the-indiscernibility-of-identicals\/\" target=\"_blank\">A formulation of Leibniz\u2019s Law \/ the Indiscernibility of Identicals<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Simplifying the Indiscernibility of Identicals  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/simplifying-the-indiscernibility-of-identicals\/\" target=\"_blank\">Simplifying the Indiscernibility of Identicals <\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/apologetics-blind-spot-numerical-identity\/\" target=\"_blank\">the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible <\/a><\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is (the second half of) \u201c<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/AlexBeroza\/59612\" target=\"_blank\">Kalte Ohren<\/a>\u201d by Alex. <\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Arguing about what is essential to a trinitarian theology, and about a seemingly incoherent Trinity theory.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":41314,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,6,58,75,4,8,10,5,20,9,57,77,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-41302","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-complaints","category-creeds","category-divine-attributes","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-linkage","category-logic","category-modalism","category-mystery","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41302","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=41302"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41302\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41340,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41302\/revisions\/41340"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/41314"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=41302"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=41302"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=41302"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}