{"id":41579,"date":"2019-09-16T21:56:37","date_gmt":"2019-09-17T01:56:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=41579"},"modified":"2019-09-16T21:56:39","modified_gmt":"2019-09-17T01:56:39","slug":"podcast-271-does-your-trinity-theory-require-relative-identity","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-271-does-your-trinity-theory-require-relative-identity\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 271 &#8211; Does your Trinity theory require relative identity?"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8978\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-41579-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities271.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities271.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities271.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities271.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=41579-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities271.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities271.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/yes-3100993_640.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41582\" width=\"390\" height=\"259\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/yes-3100993_640.jpg 640w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/yes-3100993_640-450x300.jpg 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 390px) 100vw, 390px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Apologists, this episode is for you.<\/strong> Some of you hold a Trinity theory which will clearly be incoherent <em>unless <\/em>relative identity theory is true. In this episode, I explain the concept of (numerical) identity, the basic idea behind Catholic analytic philosopher Peter Geach&#8217;s relative identity theory, and how all of this applies to Trinity theories. It will help you to start to consider whether or not relative identity is a price you&#8217;re willing to pay. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Along the way I discuss <strong>this argument, which I think we should agree must be unsound. But the question is: Why? <\/strong>(<em>Most <\/em>philosophers agree that it is obviously valid.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The Father just is God.<\/li><li>The Son just is God.<\/li><li>Therefore, the Son is the Father (and vice-versa).<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And in the last segment I discuss <strong>this challenging argument<\/strong>, which interestingly, both me and some trinitarians would say is sound (i.e. it is valid and the premises are true, so the conclusion is true too). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The Father and the Son have simultaneously and\/or timelessly differed. (theological and biblical premise)<\/li><li>Nothing can either simultaneously or timelessly be and not be some way. (self-evident premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, Father and the Son are not numerically one thing. (1,2)<\/li><li>For any a and any b, and any type of thing F, a and b are the same F only if a and b are numerically one thing. (self-evident premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, the Father and the Son are <em><strong>not <\/strong><\/em><strong>the same god<\/strong>. (3, 4)<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But what do <em>you <\/em>say about this argument? That&#8217;s the point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">(In this episode I don&#8217;t discuss Brower&#8217;s and Rea&#8217;s sort of non-Geachian relative identity theory, on which see <a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/4479697\/Constitution_Trinitarianism_An_Appraisal_Philosophy_and_Theology_25_1_129-62_2013\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"this (opens in a new tab)\">this<\/a>.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/startrektrans.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41586\" width=\"331\" height=\"244\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/startrektrans.jpg 640w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/startrektrans-450x333.jpg 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 331px) 100vw, 331px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Identity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/identity\/\" target=\"_blank\">Identity<\/a><\/li><li>&#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Trinity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\">Trinity<\/a>,&#8221; <em>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/li><li>Peter van Inwagen,  &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/andrewmbailey.com\/pvi\/ConfusionSubstance.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">Not by Confusion of Substance But by Unity of Person<\/a>,&#8221;   &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/andrewmbailey.com\/pvi\/And_Yet.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">And Yet They Are Not Three Gods But One God<\/a>&#8221;  <\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/apologetics-blind-spot-numerical-identity\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity <\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"On Numerical Sameness \/ Identity \/ \u201cAbsolute\u201d Identity  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/on-numerical-sameness-identity-absolute-identity\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>On Numerical Sameness \/ Identity \/ \u201cAbsolute\u201d Identity <\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-28-interview-with-dr-william-hasker-about-his-metaphysics-and-the-tripersonal-god-part-2\/\">podcast 28 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-27-interview-with-dr-william-hasker-about-his-metaphysics-and-the-tripersonal-god-part-1\/\">podcast 27 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 1<\/a> <\/li><li> <a aria-label=\"Two Pianos (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-231-swinburnes-social-theory-of-the-trinity\/\">podcast 231 \u2013 Swinburne\u2019s Social Theory of the Trinity<\/a> <\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Two Pianos (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/JeffSpeed68\/57454\" target=\"_blank\">Two Pianos<\/a>&#8221; by <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Stefan Kartenberg (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/people\/JeffSpeed68\" target=\"_blank\">Stefan Kartenberg<\/a>.<\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Same God but different Persons?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":41582,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,10,9,57,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-41579","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-logic","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41579","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=41579"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41579\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41587,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41579\/revisions\/41587"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/41582"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=41579"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=41579"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=41579"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}