{"id":41698,"date":"2019-10-14T21:27:48","date_gmt":"2019-10-15T02:27:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=41698"},"modified":"2019-10-21T21:12:59","modified_gmt":"2019-10-22T02:12:59","slug":"podcast-273-dr-timothy-pawls-in-defense-of-extended-conciliar-christology-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-273-dr-timothy-pawls-in-defense-of-extended-conciliar-christology-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 273 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Extended Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8512\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-41698-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities273.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities273.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities273.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities273.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=41698-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities273.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities273.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Pawl-in-defense-extended.jpeg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41702\" width=\"230\" height=\"357\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second part of our conversation about his new book, we discuss some of the &#8220;extensions&#8221; of conciliar christology that Dr. Pawl defends as coherent (contradiction-free).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">These include possibilities of multiple incarnations, Jesus&#8217;s real temptation, and the common medieval doctrine that &#8220;in&#8221; his <em>human<\/em> nature Jesus knows all past, present, and future events.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We also discuss <strong>a problem which Dr. Pawl encapsulates in this argument<\/strong> in the book (p. 96). The argument starts with five premises and derives a contraction, which shows that one or more of the premises must be false. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The Word permanently assumed whatever he assumed in the incarnation. <\/li><li>The Word assumed CHN [Christ&#8217;s human nature] in the incarnation.<\/li><li><strong>During the Interim state [i.e. when Christ was dead], CHN did not exist.<\/strong><\/li><li>All real relations, to be instantiated, require the existence of their relata.<\/li><li>Assumption [i.e. the relation between the Word and CHN] is a real relation. <\/li><li>Assumption requires the existence of its relata to be instantiated. (From 4,5)<\/li><li>During the Interim state, CHN was not assumed. (From 2,3,6)<\/li><li>It is false that the Word permanently assumed CHN in the incarnation. (From 2,7)<\/li><li>The Word permanently assumed CHN in the incarnation. (From 1,2)<\/li><li>Contradiction! (From 8,9)<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This <strong>looks like a tough problem<\/strong> for the adherent of two-natures theory, since they would seem to be committed to all of 1-5.  Dr. Pawl suggests denying either 1 or 2.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>We also discuss my objection<\/strong> that a Jesus who knew the day and hour of his future return has, if the New Testament is to be believed, deceived us. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At one point I mistakenly say the Dr. Pawl and I are in a <em>modus ponens<\/em> &#8211; <em>modus tollens<\/em> standoff. But that&#8217;s not right. <strong>My <em>modus tollens <\/em>argument <\/strong>was:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Ary_Scheffer_-_The_Temptation_of_Christ_1854-784x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41701\" width=\"304\" height=\"440\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>If Christ is divine, then he wasn&#8217;t tempted.<\/li><li>Christ <em>was<\/em> tempted.<\/li><li>Therefore, it is not the case that Christ is divine.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The corresponding <em>modus ponens<\/em> argument would be: <\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>If Christ is divine, then he wasn&#8217;t tempted.<\/li><li>Christ <em>is <\/em>divine.<\/li><li>Therefore, Christ wasn&#8217;t tempted.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I&#8217;m sure some Christians think this. But that&#8217;s <em>not <\/em>what Dr. Pawl thinks. <strong>Rather, he would argue:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Christ can be tempted.<\/li><li>Christ is divine.<\/li><li>Therefore, it is not the case that if Christ is divine then he can&#8217;t be tempted. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Of course, all three of these argument are valid. But only one of them can be sound! Which we should accept depends on what evidence we possess.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>But the disagreement between Dr. Pawl and me is better represented as two responses to what we would agree is an inconsistent triad<\/strong> of claims &#8211; claims such that if any two are true, then the remaining one is false. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/take-your-pick.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41704\" width=\"197\" height=\"172\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Christ is divine.<\/li><li>Christ was tempted.<\/li><li>If Christ is divine, then he wasn&#8217;t tempted. <\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>I deny the first<\/strong>. I hold the second to be a clear and non-negotiable New Testament teaching. And the third seems evident, given that being divine entails being perfect in power, knowledge, goodness, and independence. But the first isn&#8217;t actually supported by the New Testament, contrary to a load of dodgy traditional arguments. Thus, we should deny the first.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Pawl would say that Church tradition requires the first two, so the third should be denied.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>What say you?<\/strong> Which of those should be denied, and why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"In Defense of Extended Conciliar Christology: A Philosophical Essay (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Defense-Extended-Conciliar-Christology-Philosophical\/dp\/0198834144\/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=extended+conciliar+christology&amp;qid=1571102431&amp;sr=8-1\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>In Defense of Extended Conciliar Christology: A Philosophical Essay<\/strong><\/a><\/em><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/timpawl.wordpress.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">Dr. Timothy Pawl<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 272 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Extended Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-272-dr-timothy-pawls-in-defense-of-extended-conciliar-christology-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 272 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Extended Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li><li><em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"In Defense of Conciliar Christology: A Philosophical Essay (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Defense-Conciliar-Christology-Philosophical-Analytic\/dp\/0198765924\/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=extended+conciliar+christology&amp;qid=1571102431&amp;sr=8-2\" target=\"_blank\">In Defense of Conciliar Christology: A Philosophical Essay<\/a><\/em><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-143-dr-timothy-pawls-in-defense-of-conciliar-christology-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 143 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-144-dr-timothy-pawls-defense-conciliar-christology-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 144 \u2013 Dr. Timothy Pawl\u2019s In Defense of Conciliar Christology \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li><li><em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"modus ponens and modus tollens (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/sites.cs.ucsb.edu\/~pconrad\/cs40\/lessons\/logic\/modusPonensModusTollens.html\" target=\"_blank\">modus ponens<\/a><\/em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"modus ponens and modus tollens (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/sites.cs.ucsb.edu\/~pconrad\/cs40\/lessons\/logic\/modusPonensModusTollens.html\" target=\"_blank\"> and <\/a><em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"modus ponens and modus tollens (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/sites.cs.ucsb.edu\/~pconrad\/cs40\/lessons\/logic\/modusPonensModusTollens.html\" target=\"_blank\">modus tollens<\/a><\/em><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Jesus\u2019s temptations and ours (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-temptations-and-ours\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Jesus\u2019s temptations and ours<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies! (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 146 \u2013 Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-146-jesus-exemplar-faith-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 146 \u2013 Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament<\/a><\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Free will possession (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.freemusicarchive.org\/music\/XTaKeRuX\/XTaKeRuX\/Free_will_possession_\" target=\"_blank\">Free will possession<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/www.freemusicarchive.org\/music\/XTaKeRuX\/\">XTaKeRuX<\/a>.&#8221;<\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How could the Incarnation continue between Good Friday and Easter Sunday?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":41701,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"default","neve_meta_container":"default","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"off","neve_meta_content_width":70,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"off","neve_meta_disable_footer":"off","neve_meta_disable_title":"off","footnotes":""},"categories":[16,15,75,33,56,9,57,76],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-41698","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-books","category-christology","category-divine-attributes","category-incarnation","category-interview","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-roman-catholicism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41698","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=41698"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41698\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":41714,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/41698\/revisions\/41714"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/41701"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=41698"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=41698"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=41698"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}