{"id":42062,"date":"2019-12-23T16:03:17","date_gmt":"2019-12-23T22:03:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=42062"},"modified":"2019-12-23T16:03:20","modified_gmt":"2019-12-23T22:03:20","slug":"podcast-280-have-yourself-an-incarnation-free-christmas","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-280-have-yourself-an-incarnation-free-christmas\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 280 &#8211; Have yourself an Incarnation-free Christmas"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3097\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-42062-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities280.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities280.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities280.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities280.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=42062-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities280.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities280.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A_joyful_Christmas._8_NBY_418906.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42067\" width=\"286\" height=\"379\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A_joyful_Christmas._8_NBY_418906.jpg 454w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/A_joyful_Christmas._8_NBY_418906-340x450.jpg 340w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 286px) 100vw, 286px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Two of the four gospels contain <strong>accounts of Jesus&#8217;s birth. Does either of them portray  Jesus as &#8220;becoming Incarnate&#8221;<\/strong> &#8211; in other words, having always been divine, he becomes human when Mary becomes pregnant with him? Do they teach that an eternal divine Person came to earth from heaven? That a divine nature &#8220;assumed a complete human nature, body and soul&#8221;?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode we <strong>look for the sorts of ideas that would indicate<\/strong> that the gospels according to Matthew and Luke are committed to the Incarnation of Jesus. We&#8217;d expect to see some reference to (1) a before-state, where he is only divine, not human, (2) the transition, when he becomes incarnate, and (3) the after-state, where he is both divine and human, a godman, God in human baby form.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>What if we<em> don&#8217;t<\/em> find<\/strong> any such ideas in the Jesus-origin-stories in Matthew and Luke? What then should we conclude about their christological commitments?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I discuss this <strong>inconsistent triad of claims<\/strong>. It seems that a thinking Christian ought to deny one of these claims.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The New Testament gospels agree in their core claims about Jesus and God.<\/li><li>Matthew, Mark, and Luke don\u2019t teach that the pre-human Jesus voluntarily assumed a complete human nature in order to save us. <\/li><li>John teaches that the pre-human Jesus voluntarily assumed a complete human nature in order to save us. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Which do you deny, and why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/78_o-come-all-ye-faithful-adeste-fideles_the-canterbury-choir-macklin-marrow-ernest_gbia0006856a_itemimage-1024x994.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42070\" width=\"488\" height=\"474\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/78_o-come-all-ye-faithful-adeste-fideles_the-canterbury-choir-macklin-marrow-ernest_gbia0006856a_itemimage-1024x994.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/78_o-come-all-ye-faithful-adeste-fideles_the-canterbury-choir-macklin-marrow-ernest_gbia0006856a_itemimage-450x437.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/78_o-come-all-ye-faithful-adeste-fideles_the-canterbury-choir-macklin-marrow-ernest_gbia0006856a_itemimage-768x745.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/78_o-come-all-ye-faithful-adeste-fideles_the-canterbury-choir-macklin-marrow-ernest_gbia0006856a_itemimage.jpg 1485w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 488px) 100vw, 488px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 67 \u2013 Is Christmas a pagan holiday? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-67-is-christmas-a-pagan-holiday\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 67 \u2013 Is Christmas a pagan holiday?<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-235-the-case-against-preexistence\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Clarifying Catholic Christologies (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/s6wK-lRZP-k\" target=\"_blank\">Clarifying Catholic Christologies<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Christmas Amazement (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/christmas-amazement\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Christmas Amazement<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"World Religions 4a Hindu doctrines, schools, and history - Brahman, atman, and reincarnation (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/jx9eKZmKb7s\" target=\"_blank\">World Religions 4a Hindu doctrines, schools, and history &#8211; Brahman, atman, and reincarnation<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Birth of Krishna  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/n5cfEU_DtTA\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Birth of Krishna <\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"a baby god - Ram (avatar of the god Vishnu) from Ramayana episode 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/IrH7dtuO4Vc\" target=\"_blank\">a baby god &#8211; Ram (avatar of the god Vishnu) from Ramayana episode 1<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"World Religions 6a Life of the Buddha, Buddhist History - the life of Gautama part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/7cB5YVfuqw4\" target=\"_blank\">World Religions 6a Life of the Buddha, Buddhist History &#8211; the life of Gautama part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Matthew 1-2 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Matthew+1-2&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">Matthew 1-2<\/a>; <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"Luke 1-3 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=Luke+1-3&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">Luke 1-3<\/a>; <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"John 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.biblegateway.com\/passage\/?search=john+1&amp;version=NRSV\" target=\"_blank\">John 1<\/a>; Philippians 2:5-7.<\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"a reading of Philippians 2:5-11 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-reading-of-philippians-25-11\/\" target=\"_blank\">a reading of Philippians 2:5-11<\/a><\/li><li>Brown, <em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"The Birth of the Messiah (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Birth-Messiah-Anchor-Reference-Library\/dp\/0385472021\/ref=sr_1_1?crid=OD9OOYWVTP71&amp;keywords=birth+of+the+messiah+by+raymond+brown&amp;qid=1577135486&amp;sprefix=birth+of+the+messiah%2Caps%2C168&amp;sr=8-1\" target=\"_blank\">The Birth of the Messiah<\/a><\/em><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 128 \u2013 Ehrman and Bird on How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-128-ehrman-and-bird-on-how-jesus-became-god-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 128 \u2013 Ehrman and Bird on How Jesus Became God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-227-who-should-christians-worship\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship? (opens in a new tab)\"><strong>podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship?<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" aria-label=\"O Come All Ye Faithful (Adeste Fideles) (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/archive.org\/details\/78_o-come-all-ye-faithful-adeste-fideles_the-canterbury-choir-macklin-marrow-ernest_gbia0006856a\/O+Come+All+Ye+Faithful+(Adeste+Fide+-+The+Canterbury+Choir.flac\" target=\"_blank\">O Come All Ye Faithful (Adeste Fideles)<\/a>&#8221; by the Canterbury Choir.<\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Why no mention of Incarnation in the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":42067,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,16,15,33,57,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-42062","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-incarnation","category-podcast","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42062","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=42062"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42062\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":42076,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42062\/revisions\/42076"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/42067"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=42062"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=42062"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=42062"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}