{"id":42427,"date":"2020-05-18T18:42:25","date_gmt":"2020-05-18T23:42:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=42427"},"modified":"2021-03-17T10:42:57","modified_gmt":"2021-03-17T15:42:57","slug":"podcast-295-james-martineau-on-john-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-295-james-martineau-on-john-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 295 &#8211; James Martineau on John 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1177\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-42427-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities295.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities295.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities295.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities295.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=42427-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities295.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities295.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode I present and offer a few comments on a discussion of the prologue to the fourth gospel by a very learned English unitarian Christian who died in 1900, the pastor and philosopher James Martineau. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is a portion of his chapter <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dropbox.com\/s\/nqxzg2kb30dfdu0\/Martineau%20Chapter%205%20-%20That%20Christ%20is%20not%20God%20-%20printable.pdf?dl=0\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;<strong>The Proposition &#8216;That Christ is God,&#8217; Proved to be False<\/strong> from the Jewish and the Christian Scriptures&#8221;<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Martineau writes in a dense, learned, 19th century style, but I think his discussion abounds with <strong>important insights <\/strong>about rightly interpreting this text. About personification, he observes:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Indeed <strong>the distinction between a mere personification and a positive mythological personage is very faint<\/strong>. When a writer personifies an abstraction, for the moment he conceives of this object of thought as a person; and were this state of mind perpetuated, he would believe it to be a person. But his mental attitude changes; and in a less excited hour, that which bad constructed and painted itself almost into a being, fades away again into an attribute. Hence the fluctuation of writers, at once imaginative and speculative, like Philo and some of the early Christian Fathers, between the logical and the mythical method of speaking of the properties of the Divine nature. And it may be remarked, that the Apostle John partook, though in a very slight degree, of the same tendency.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James_Martineau_by_Elliott__Fry_c1860s.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42429\" width=\"340\" height=\"411\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James_Martineau_by_Elliott__Fry_c1860s.jpg 616w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/James_Martineau_by_Elliott__Fry_c1860s-372x450.jpg 372w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 340px) 100vw, 340px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Martineau&#8217;s topics in this portion of his lecture include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><strong>how the passage misfits any Trinity theory<\/strong><\/li><li>why John writes &#8220;and the Word was God&#8221;<\/li><li>the relevance of earlier writings that mention <strong>God&#8217;s &#8220;Word&#8221; (Greek: <em>logos<\/em>)<\/strong><\/li><li>an analogy with the English term &#8220;genius&#8221;<\/li><li>John&#8217;s love of abstractions<\/li><li>the literary device of <strong>personification <\/strong>in English and in other languages, and how languages differ in how this device is used &#8211; and how this is relevant to John 1<\/li><li>why, against some recent unitarians, <strong>it is not right to refuse to use personal pronouns<\/strong> in translating this passage, insisting on referring to God&#8217;s logos as &#8220;it&#8221;<\/li><li>how some of points are confirmed by the comments of a leading trinitarian commenter on John in his day<\/li><li>How, strictly speaking, Jesus is not mentioned in this text until John 1:14.<\/li><li>Why John 1:12 <em>sounds like<\/em> it&#8217;s talking about the man Jesus.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As usual when I present historical works, I substitute a word here and there so as to make the material understandable (more or less!) by an educated person in our day. If you want to read this whole chapter, there is <strong>a pdf of it linked below<\/strong>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">German-speaking listeners; please forgive my pronunciation of German words in this episode!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Do you find Martineau&#8217;s reading of the prologue persuasive? Why or why not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Martineau-engraving.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42432\" width=\"278\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Martineau-engraving.jpg 682w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Martineau-engraving-363x450.jpg 363w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 278px) 100vw, 278px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/James_Martineau\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>James Martineau<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/books\/edition\/Unitarianism_Defended\/OoEAAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=0\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><em>Unitarianism Defended: A Series of Lectures<\/em> (1839)<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dropbox.com\/s\/nqxzg2kb30dfdu0\/Martineau%20Chapter%205%20-%20That%20Christ%20is%20not%20God%20-%20printable.pdf?dl=0\" target=\"_blank\">This lecture: &#8220;The Proposition &#8216;That Christ is God,&#8217; Proved to be False from the Jewish and the Christian Scriptures&#8221;<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/koogceUAG50\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>The Unfinished Business of the Reformation &#8211; trinities 189<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/philo\/\" target=\"_blank\">Philo of Alexandria <\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Gottfried_Christian_Friedrich_L%C3%BCcke\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Gottfried Christian Friedrich L\u00fccke<\/a> (<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/de.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Friedrich_L%C3%BCcke\" target=\"_blank\">German<\/a>)<\/li><li><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/books\/edition\/_\/MHdAAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjS5-Cys77pAhUCCM0KHbmpA6IQ8fIDMAt6BAgIEAY\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Commentar \u00fcber die Schriften des Evangelisten Johannes<\/a><\/em>&nbsp;(4 vols., 1820\u20131832)<\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Loyalty_Freak_Music\/INSTRUMENTAL_RB_BEATS_TO_SING_OR_RAP_ON\/Loyalty_Freak_Music_-_INSTRUMENTAL_RB_BEATS_TO_SING_OR_RAP_ON_-_05_The_candle\" target=\"_blank\">The Candle<\/a>&#8221; by<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Loyalty_Freak_Music\" target=\"_blank\"> Loyalty Freak Music<\/a>.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>An insightful discussion of John 1 from the year 1839.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":42431,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"off","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,15,14,33,57,7,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-42427","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-history","category-incarnation","category-podcast","category-quotes","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42427","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=42427"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42427\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43154,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42427\/revisions\/43154"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/42431"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=42427"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=42427"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=42427"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}