{"id":42533,"date":"2020-07-06T20:51:05","date_gmt":"2020-07-07T01:51:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=42533"},"modified":"2020-07-06T20:51:10","modified_gmt":"2020-07-07T01:51:10","slug":"podcast-299-does-the-new-testament-teach-trinity-monotheism-with-dale-glover-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-299-does-the-new-testament-teach-trinity-monotheism-with-dale-glover-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 299 &#8211; Does the New Testament teach Trinity Monotheism? &#8211; with Dale Glover &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1240\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-42533-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities299.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities299.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities299.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities299.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=42533-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities299.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities299.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/open-book-1428428_1920-1024x769.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-42538\" width=\"443\" height=\"333\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/open-book-1428428_1920-1024x769.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/open-book-1428428_1920-450x338.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/open-book-1428428_1920-768x576.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/open-book-1428428_1920-1536x1153.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/open-book-1428428_1920.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 443px) 100vw, 443px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode, the first half of my conversation\/debate with Canadian evangelical apologist Dale Glover, about <strong>whether or not the New Testament teaches  &#8220;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-296-assessing-craigs-trinity-monotheism-with-dale-glover-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\">Trinity Monotheism<\/a><\/strong>.&#8221; (This is a three-self Trinity theory on which the Persons are proper parts of the triune God.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">First, Dale asks me which Trinity theory I would accept <em>if <\/em>I were convinced that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three personal, divine beings. Then, he argues that belief in &#8220;multiplicity in the Godhead&#8221; is <strong>essential to being saved<\/strong>, and I reply with what I understand to be the required beliefs according to the New Testament. I then present a summary case of why I think the New Testament writers think that the one God just is the Father, and not the Trinity. <strong>My case focuses on four indisuputable facts <\/strong>about the New Testament<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>In the New Testament, the word \u201cGod\u201d nearly always refers to the Father, while no word there refers to the Trinity.<\/li><li>All four gospels feature a \u201cmere man\u201d compatible main thesis.<\/li><li>The NT writings without embarrassment or explanation present Jesus as both limited and dependent on God.\u00a0<\/li><li>In the New Testament only the Father and the man Jesus are worshiped.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I argue that <strong>these confirm the thesis<\/strong> that these authors think the one God is the Father over the thesis that they think the one God is the Trinity. (A longer and more technical version of this sort of argument is in <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a>.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dale Glover formulates <strong>his case that Trinity Monotheism is supported by the Bible<\/strong> as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>There is only one (\u201cechad\u201d not \u201cyachid\u201d) God.\u00a0<\/li><li>In the Bible God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinct individuals\/persons (standing in interpersonal \u201cI-THOU\u201d relations to each other).<\/li><li>According to the Bible, anything which has one or more of the Yahweh-identifying features is, minimally, a proper, distinctive, and essential part of God\/Yahweh.\u00a0<\/li><li>God the Father, Jesus &amp; the Holy Spirit have ONE OR MORE of the Yahweh-identifying features.<\/li><li>The <strong>Trinity Monotheism<\/strong> model entails that God the Father, Jesus and the H.S. are distinct individual persons subsisting within one God named Yahweh proper (i.e. one thing\/Being\/immaterial or spiritual soul) &#8211; a model that is at least consistent with the biblical data.<\/li><li>\u00a0Therefore, there are three distinct individuals\/persons named God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit who are (minimally) <strong>proper, distinctive and essential parts of the one God<\/strong>\/Yahweh (i.e. Trinity Monotheism model affirmed in Jewish language as opposed to Greek philosophical terminology of the later Creeds). This is consistent with the Biblical Data.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Do you find Mr. Glover&#8217;s argument convincing? Why, or why not? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What about the evidence that I offer in favor of the New Testament authors being unitarian? Do you find that evidence compelling? Why or why not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Next week, our discussion of our clashing cases.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/realseekerministries.wordpress.com\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Real Seeker Ministries<\/strong><\/a> (<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/realseekerministries.wordpress.com\/2020\/06\/30\/is-trinity-monotheism-biblically-consistent-discussing-the-new-testament-with-dr-dale-tuggy\/\" target=\"_blank\">this discussion<\/a>)<\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-297-assessing-craigs-trinity-monotheism-with-dale-glover-part-2\/\">podcast 297 \u2013 Assessing Craig\u2019s \u201cTrinity Monotheism\u201d \u2013 with Dale Glover \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-296-assessing-craigs-trinity-monotheism-with-dale-glover-part-1\/\">podcast 296 \u2013 Assessing Craig\u2019s \u201cTrinity Monotheism\u201d \u2013 with Dale Glover \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-286-is-the-trinity-essential-three-views\/\"><strong>podcast 286 \u2013 Is the Trinity Essential? \u2013 Three Views<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-2-the-athanasian-creed\/\">podcast 2 \u2013 the \u201cAthanasian Creed\u201d<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/philpapers.org\/rec\/SPESTA\" target=\"_blank\">Daniel Spencer, &#8220;Social Trinitarianism and the tripartite God&#8221;<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-226-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-3-post-biblical-uses-of-biblical-words-and-new-words\/\">podcast 226 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 3 \u2013 post-biblical uses of biblical words, and new words<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-225-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-2-old-lord-vs-new-lord\/\">podcast 225 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 \u2013 Old \u201cLord\u201d vs. New \u201cLord\u201d<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-224-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-1-god-and-god-in-the-bible\/\"><strong>podcast 224 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 \u2013 God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-260-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian\/\">podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-259-who-is-the-one-creator-part-2\/\">podcast 259 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-258-who-is-the-one-creator-part-1\/\">podcast 258 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-227-who-should-christians-worship\/\"><strong>podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship?<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/evangelical-apologists-take-note-hurtado-on-jesus-and-god\/\" target=\"_blank\">evangelical apologists take note: Hurtado on Jesus and God<\/a><\/li><li><strong>fulfillment fallacy posts: <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-bible-teaches-that-david-is-god\/\" target=\"_blank\">the Bible teaches that David is God<\/a>, <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-bible-on-another-previous-life-of-jesus\/\" target=\"_blank\">the Bible on another previous life of Jesus<\/a><\/strong><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-85-heretic-four-approaches-to-dropping-h-bombs\/\" target=\"_blank\">podcast 85 \u2013 Heretic! Four Approaches to Dropping H-Bombs<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-argument-in-john-10\/\">Jesus\u2019s argument in John 10<\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/trinity-an-anachronism-in-1st-3rd-centuries\/\" target=\"_blank\">the concept of a triune God an anachronism in the first three centuries<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/tuggy-vs-date-the-book-is-better\/\"><strong>Tuggy vs. Date: the book is better<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-13-on-bauckhams-bargain\/\">podcast 13 \u2013 On Bauckham\u2019s Bargain<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-214-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-2\/\">podcast 214 \u2013 Has Bauckham clarified his \u201cdivine identity\u201d theory? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-213-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-1\/\">podcast 213 \u2013 Has Bauckham clarified his \u201cdivine identity\u201d theory? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-291-from-one-god-to-two-gods-to-three-gods-john-1-and-early-christian-theologies\/\"><strong>podcast 291 \u2013 From one God to two gods to three \u201cGods\u201d \u2013 John 1 and early Christian theologies<\/strong><\/a><\/li><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-reading-of-philippians-25-11\/\" target=\"_blank\">a reading of Philippians 2:5-11<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a><\/li><li>Romans 10:9-13; Joel 2:32; Joel 3:5; John 8:24; John 4:25-26; John 20 thesis; Isaiah immanuel and Mt; John 9 I am he; Mark I am he; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Philippians 2:11; Revelation 4; Revelation 5; Romans 1:25; John 17:1-3; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; John 8:54; Acts 2:25; Acts 3:36; John 20:17; 1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28; John 10:34; Psalm 82:6-7:; Hebrews 1:8-9; Psalm 45:6-7; John 20:31; Mark 8:29; Ephesians 4:4-6; John 1:1; Deuteronomy 6:4; Philippians 2:5-11; Isaiah 45:5; 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1; Ephesians 2:19-22; Ezekiel 37:27; Isaiah 52:11; Galatians 4:3-11; 2 Corinthians 3:7-18; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:17; Ephesians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:3; Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:1.<\/li><li>This week&#8217;s thinking music is <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/Art_of_Presentation\/Jesse_Spillane_-_Art_of_Presentation_-_11_Number_0\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Number 0&#8221;<\/a> by Jesse Spillane<\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A conversation about whether or not the New Testament teaches  &#8220;Trinity Monotheism.&#8221; <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":42538,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"off","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,9,57,77,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-42533","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42533","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=42533"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42533\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":42544,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/42533\/revisions\/42544"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/42538"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=42533"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=42533"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=42533"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}