{"id":43061,"date":"2021-02-16T09:27:11","date_gmt":"2021-02-16T15:27:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43061"},"modified":"2021-02-16T09:35:11","modified_gmt":"2021-02-16T15:35:11","slug":"podcast-319-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-rogers-about-mark-part-1-culture-clash","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-319-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-rogers-about-mark-part-1-culture-clash\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 319 &#8211; Thoughts on my debate with Rogers about Mark &#8211; Part 1 &#8211; culture clash"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4685\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43061-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities319.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities319.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities319.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities319.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43061-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities319.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities319.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Love_vs._Hate-1024x642.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43064\" width=\"420\" height=\"263\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Love_vs._Hate-1024x642.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Love_vs._Hate-450x282.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Love_vs._Hate-768x482.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Love_vs._Hate-1536x963.jpg 1536w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Love_vs._Hate-2048x1285.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 420px) 100vw, 420px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode I reflect on the debate of episodes 317 and 318. Topics include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>why I was willing to debate a <a aria-label=\"Jesus-is-God apologist (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Jesus-is-God apologist<\/a> like Rogers<\/li><li>Rogers&#8217;s post-debate statements that I think that all trinitarians are blasphemers, and that I regard them with &#8220;immense hatred.&#8221; <\/li><li>what I meant by referring to Rogers&#8217;s views as &#8220;fringe&#8221;<\/li><li>the idea that we can first interpret the Bible and construct our theology and only then bring in any sort of &#8220;philosophical&#8221; reasoning<\/li><li>some things Rogers doesn&#8217;t understand about contemporary analytic Christian Philosophy<\/li><li>why I <em>don&#8217;t <\/em>assume &#8220;that God can be only one Person&#8221; or that &#8220;if Jesus is God then the Father can&#8217;t be God&#8221;<\/li><li>the importance of the concept of numerical sameness\/identity when it comes to reasoning about God and Jesus<\/li><li>apologists&#8217; obstinate refusal to learn that these are valid forms of argument: a=c, b=c, therefore a=b; Fa, not-Fb, therefore not-(a=b) (&#8220;Fx&#8221; is a claim that x has feature F)<\/li><li>a vast and directly relevant scholarly literature which Jesus-is-God apologists choose to ignore<\/li><li>the idea of OT &#8220;signature acts&#8221; of God<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Towards the end, I discuss <strong>the opening of the gospel according to Mark<\/strong>, with a view towards keeping its characters straight. Below, the terms referring to Jesus are blue, those referring to God are red, and those referring to John are in green. The parts which reflect an assumption of differences between Jesus and God are underlined. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"882\" height=\"623\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mark-1-3-characters.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43067\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mark-1-3-characters.png 882w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mark-1-3-characters-450x318.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Mark-1-3-characters-768x542.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 882px) 100vw, 882px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Next episode: how Rogers, in his zeal to argue that Jesus is Yahweh, rejects a massive amount of contemporary <em>conservative <\/em>Bible scholarship. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dropbox.com\/s\/o03tqgosaj5otpg\/RogersTuggy-Debate-Map.pdf?dl=0\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Tre Brickley's debate map (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Tre Brickley&#8217;s debate map<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UC-DJyBJlGeHvXfUXAojqL7w\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"original debate video (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">original debate video<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/debating-dale-starter-pack\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Debating Dale Starter Pack (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Debating Dale Starter Pack<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-264-tuggy-vs-date-debate-jesus-is-human-and-not-divine-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 264 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-263-tuggy-vs-date-debate-jesus-is-human-and-not-divine-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 263 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/OKAegaCMDB0\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Anthony Rogers's post-debate discussion with his followers (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Anthony Rogers&#8217;s post-debate discussion with his followers<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/apologetics-blind-spot-numerical-identity\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Walton,<em> <a aria-label=\"Old Testament Theology for Christians: From Ancient Context to Enduring Belief (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Old-Testament-Theology-Christians-Enduring\/dp\/0830851925\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Old Testament Theology for Christians: From Ancient Context to Enduring Belief<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-100-dr-larry-hurtado-on-god-in-new-testament-theology\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 100 \u2013 Dr. Larry Hurtado on God in New Testament Theology (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 100 \u2013 Dr. Larry Hurtado on God in New Testament Theology<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dunn, <a aria-label=\"Did the First Christians Worship Jesus? The New Testament Evidence  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Did-First-Christians-Worship-Jesus-ebook\/dp\/B005GLN2H6\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><em>Did the First Christians Worship Jesus? The New Testament Evidence<\/em> <\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/identity\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Identity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Identity<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-271-does-your-trinity-theory-require-relative-identity\/\">podcast 271 \u2013 Does your Trinity theory require relative identity?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Pawl, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.cambridge.org\/core\/elements\/incarnation\/626F1236CF836B21C5D6B6873FD1804D\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Incarnation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Incarnation<\/a><\/em> <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-302-the-stages-of-trinitarian-commitment\/\">podcast 302 \u2013 The Stages of Trinitarian Commitment<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tuggy: <em><a aria-label=\"What is the Trinity? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.what-is-the-trinity.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">What is the Trinity?<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-223-self-evident-truths-relevant-to-trinity-or-incarnation-theories-part-2\/\">podcast 223 \u2013 Self-evident truths relevant to Trinity or Incarnation theories \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-222-self-evident-truths-relevant-to-trinity-or-incarnation-theories-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 222 \u2013 Self-evident truths relevant to Trinity or Incarnation theories \u2013 Part 1<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-221-thomas-reid-on-human-prejudices-and-common-causes-of-error\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 221 \u2013 Thomas Reid on human prejudices and common causes of error<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-220-thomas-reid-on-first-principles-and-common-sense-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 220 \u2013 Thomas Reid on First Principles and Common Sense \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-219-thomas-reid-on-first-principles-and-common-sense-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 219 \u2013 Thomas Reid on First Principles and Common Sense \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>\u201c<\/strong><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Trinity<\/strong><\/a><strong>,\u201d <\/strong><em><strong>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201c<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.iep.utm.edu\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" class=\"ek-link\">Trinity<\/a>,\u201d <em>Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201c<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/faculty.wwu.edu\/~howardd\/Trinity.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">Trinity<\/a>,\u201d <em>Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jpmoreland.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"J.P. Moreland (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">J.P. Moreland<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-265-what-apologists-dont-understand-about-the-terms-being-and-person\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 265 \u2013 What apologists don\u2019t understand about the terms \u201cbeing\u201d and \u201cPerson\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 225 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 \u2013 Old \u201cLord\u201d vs. New \u201cLord\u201d (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-225-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-2-old-lord-vs-new-lord\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 225 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 \u2013 Old \u201cLord\u201d vs. New \u201cLord\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Collins, <em><a aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Mark-Commentary-Hermeneia-Critical-Historical\/dp\/0800660781\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Mark: A Commentary (Hermeneia: a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible)<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"How Anthony Rogers interprets Scripture as self-contradictory\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/qd2xiCKl8-g?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Acts 3:22; Deuteronomy 18:15; Matthew 5:43-48; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Isaiah 46; Mark 1:1-11<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Little_Glass_Men\/Simplify\/Procreation\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Procreation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Procreation<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Little_Glass_Men\" class=\"ek-link\">Little Glass Men<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Why &#8220;that&#8217;s just Philosophy&#8221; is no excuse for a failure of basic critical thinking.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43064,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,6,54,9,57,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43061","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-complaints","category-debates","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43061","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43061"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43061\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43077,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43061\/revisions\/43077"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43064"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43061"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43061"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43061"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}