{"id":43255,"date":"2021-05-11T09:22:23","date_gmt":"2021-05-11T14:22:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43255"},"modified":"2021-05-11T09:22:32","modified_gmt":"2021-05-11T14:22:32","slug":"podcast-327-dr-liconas-historical-case-that-jesus-considered-himself-to-be-god-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-327-dr-liconas-historical-case-that-jesus-considered-himself-to-be-god-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 327 &#8211; Dr. Licona&#8217;s historical case that Jesus considered himself to be God &#8211; Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3609\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43255-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities327.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities327.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities327.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities327.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43255-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities327.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities327.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Jesus_walking_on_water._Daniel_of_Uranc_1433.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43258\" width=\"421\" height=\"352\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Jesus_walking_on_water._Daniel_of_Uranc_1433.jpg 800w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Jesus_walking_on_water._Daniel_of_Uranc_1433-450x376.jpg 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Jesus_walking_on_water._Daniel_of_Uranc_1433-768x641.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 421px) 100vw, 421px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode Dr. Licona assumes that, <a aria-label=\"as he argued last time (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-326-dr-liconas-historical-case-that-jesus-considered-himself-to-be-god-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">as he argued last time<\/a>, that the earliest Christians thought that &#8220;Jesus is God.&#8221; In this portion of his lecture he argues that this is explained by the <strong>historical Jesus claiming<\/strong> exactly that, which he says is suggested by certain New Testament texts. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the start of this episode I turn to <a aria-label=\"this scholarly debate (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/zkjzQO5aaSc\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">this scholarly debate<\/a> to try to get some clarity about what it&#8217;s supposed to mean, according to Dr. Licona, to say <strong>that &#8220;Jesus is God.&#8221;<\/strong> <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Licona gives <strong>a quick run through the earliest gospel, Mark<\/strong>, in order to find implications that &#8220;Jesus is God.&#8221; I rebut these, chapter by chapter, using information in Mark and in other roughly contemporary writings, the other New Testament gospels. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Licona seems to deploy, in part, arguments like these:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Only God can walk on water.<\/li><li>Jesus walked on water.<\/li><li>Therefore, Jesus just is God. (1,2)<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The argument is <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/iep.utm.edu\/val-snd\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"valid (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">valid<\/a>, but <\/strong>I argue on New Testament grounds that 1 is false. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Again, he argues:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Only God can raise the dead by his own power.<\/li><li><strong>Jesus raised the dead by his own power.<\/strong><\/li><li>Therefore Jesus just is God. (1,2)  <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Again, the argument is valid (and notice that the implied conclusion is the numerical identity of Jesus with God &#8211; that&#8217;s what 1 and 2 imply). But I argue that we lack adequate reasons to agree with premise 2, so this argument should not persuade anyone. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I general, I highlight the New Testament <strong>evidence that the earliest Christians thought of Jesus as &#8220;a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.&#8221; <\/strong>(Luke 23:19)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Along the way Dr. Licona helpfully explains what genre biblical scholars think the gospels belong to and what their &#8220;Q&#8221; hypothesis is regarding the synoptic gospels. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>What do you say? Has Dr. Licona shown<\/strong> that probably the historical Jesus thought that he was God? Why or why not? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-326-dr-liconas-historical-case-that-jesus-considered-himself-to-be-god-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 326 \u2013 Dr. Licona\u2019s historical case that Jesus considered himself to be God \u2013 Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 326 \u2013 Dr. Licona\u2019s historical case that Jesus considered himself to be God \u2013 Part 1<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/hbu.edu\/contact\/michael-licona\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Dr. Licona\u2019s page at Houston Baptist University<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.risenjesus.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" class=\"ek-link\">Dr. Licona\u2019s ministry RisenJesus.com<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/zkjzQO5aaSc\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Religion Soup: &quot;Did Jesus Believe He Was Divine?&quot; Michael Licona and Dale Martin (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Religion Soup: &#8220;Did Jesus Believe He Was Divine?&#8221; Michael Licona and Dale Martin<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-256-aaron-shelenberger-from-trinitarian-to-unitarian-part-3\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 256 \u2013 Aaron Shelenberger, from trinitarian to unitarian \u2013 Part 3<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-256-aaron-shelenberger-from-trinitarian-to-unitarian-part-3\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 255 \u2013 Aaron Shelenberger, from trinitarian to unitarian \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-256-aaron-shelenberger-from-trinitarian-to-unitarian-part-3\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 254 \u2013 Aaron Shelenberger, from trinitarian to unitarian \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/prophesy-they-said.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43259\" width=\"441\" height=\"337\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/prophesy-they-said.jpg 630w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/prophesy-they-said-450x344.jpg 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 441px) 100vw, 441px\" \/><figcaption><br \/><br \/><\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-13-on-bauckhams-bargain\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 13 \u2013 On Bauckham\u2019s Bargain<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-214-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 214 \u2013 Has Bauckham clarified his \u201cdivine identity\u201d theory? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-214-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 213 \u2013 Has Bauckham clarifi<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-213-has-bauckham-clarified-his-divine-identity-theory-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">ed his \u201cdivine identity\u201d theory? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Plutarch\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Plutarch (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Plutarch<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-307-two-readings-of-mark-popular-or-esoteric-part-3\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 307 \u2013 Two Readings of Mark \u2013 popular or esoteric? \u2013 Part 3<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-306-two-readings-of-mark-popular-or-esoteric-part-2\/\">podcast 306 \u2013 Two Readings of Mark \u2013 popular or esoteric? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-305-two-readings-of-mark-popular-or-esoteric-part-1\/\">podcast 305 \u2013 Two Readings of Mark \u2013 popular or esoteric? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-320-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-rogers-about-mark-part-2-interpretive-fails\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 320 \u2013 Thoughts on my debate with Rogers about Mark \u2013 Part 2 \u2013 interpretive fails<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-320-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-rogers-about-mark-part-2-interpretive-fails\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 319 \u2013 Thoughts on my debate with Rogers about Mark \u2013 Part 1 \u2013 culture clash<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-320-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-rogers-about-mark-part-2-interpretive-fails\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 318 \u2013 Debate with Rogers \u2013 Does Mark teach that Jesus is God? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-320-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-rogers-about-mark-part-2-interpretive-fails\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 317 \u2013 Debate with Rogers \u2013 Does Mark teach that Jesus is God? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/does-mark-teach-that-jesus-is-god\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Does Mark teach that Jesus is God? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Does Mark teach that Jesus is God?<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/only-god-can-forgive-sins-false\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"\u201cOnly God can forgive sins.\u201d False. (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">\u201cOnly God can forgive sins.\u201d False.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Gospel-International-Greek-Testament-Commentary\/dp\/0802824463\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"France, The Gospel of Mark (The New International Greek Testament Commentary) (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">France, <em>The Gospel of Mark<\/em> (The New International Greek Testament Commentary)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesuss-argument-in-john-10\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Jesus's argument in John 10 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Jesus&#8217;s argument in John 10<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/worship-and-revelation-4-5-part-6-postscript-morgridge-on-revelation-4-5-dale\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Charles Morgridge on Revelation 4-5 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Charles Morgridge on Revelation 4-5<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Who Should Christians Worship? Part 1\" width=\"1200\" height=\"900\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/9IPJq1kcDuc?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Who Should Christians Worship? Part 2\" width=\"1200\" height=\"900\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/qCrHrsrdV70?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/letter\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week\u2019s thinking music is \u201c<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Little_Glass_Men\/The_Jewel_and_Me\/Moon_Shadow_082316_2\" target=\"_blank\" class=\"ek-link\">Moon Shadow<\/a>\u201d by\u00a0<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Little_Glass_Men\" target=\"_blank\">Little Glass Men<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Can we establish on historical grounds that the historical Jesus thought that he was God?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43258,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,6,54,5,57,77,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43255","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-complaints","category-debates","category-modalism","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43255","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43255"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43255\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43261,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43255\/revisions\/43261"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43258"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43255"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43255"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43255"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}