{"id":43455,"date":"2021-11-04T22:10:00","date_gmt":"2021-11-05T03:10:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43455"},"modified":"2021-11-08T19:25:22","modified_gmt":"2021-11-09T01:25:22","slug":"podcast-336-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-336-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 336 &#8211; Chris Date&#8217;s Search for a Viable Trinity Theory &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1173\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43455-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities336.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities336.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities336.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities336.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43455-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities336.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities336.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-10-29-201442.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43459\" width=\"389\" height=\"318\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-10-29-201442.png 550w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-10-29-201442-450x368.png 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 389px) 100vw, 389px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Some object to &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; that it is incoherent<\/strong> &#8211; that is, that it implies one or more contradictions. This is the sort of objection which apologists tend to focus on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But it&#8217;s never been clear quite <strong>what that doctrine is<\/strong>, as tradition has bequeathed words in need of interpretation without also giving the interpretations. Given this, it&#8217;s hard to make the case that &#8220;the doctrine&#8221; is incoherent. And some trinitarians think that there are<strong> a number of different doctrines,<\/strong> each of which should count as &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity.&#8221; <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode, you&#8217;ll hear apologist Chris Date expound what he claims are <strong>criteria for a Trinity theory to be orthodox<\/strong>, i.e. in line with (at least the first four) catholic creeds. These are the seven statements shown here. He then starts to expound what he claims is<strong> a Trinity doctrine which is both orthodox and coherent<\/strong>. If he&#8217;s right, then there is at least one orthodox Trinity-theology which <em>is <\/em>coherent, and the aforementioned critics are mistaken.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode <strong>I join in on his exploration<\/strong> of these topics, commenting on his seven criteria for an orthodox theory, and on how he starts to develop his views on how the &#8220;divine Persons&#8221; relate to the one God. In the next episode, we&#8217;ll hear the rest of his development of these ideas, and my critical comments on them. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>If you are looking for a way of understanding &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; which is coherent, you should enjoy these explorations.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-337-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 337 \u2013 Chris Date\u2019s Search for a Viable Trinity Theory \u2013 Part 2<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"Theopologetics 028: Can an Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity Be Logically Coherent? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=6WJ-mdKdNFo\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Theopologetics 028: Can an Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity Be Logically Coherent?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=tTGViH-mM7Y\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"December 4, 2021 debate: Does the Trinity Make Sense? A Debate Between Chris Date vs Muslim Metaphysician (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">December 4, 2021 debate: Does the Trinity Make Sense? A Debate Between Chris Date vs Muslim Metaphysician<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"Debate - &quot;Is Jesus Human and not Divine?&quot; - Dr. Dale Tuggy vs. Chris Date (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=c35_uFjEbx8&amp;t=817s\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Debate &#8211; &#8220;Is Jesus Human and not Divine?&#8221; &#8211; Dr. Dale Tuggy vs. Chris Date<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy and Date, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-Divine-Essential-Christian-Debates\/dp\/1946971804\/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=is+jesus+human+and+not+divine&amp;qid=1636079604&amp;sr=8-2\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Is Jesus Human and Not Divine? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Is Jesus Human and Not Divine?<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, &#8220;<a aria-label=\"Trinity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Trinity<\/a>,&#8221; <em>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-232-trinity-club-orientation\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.what-is-the-trinity.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"What is the Trinity? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">What is the Trinity?<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-2-the-athanasian-creed\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 2 \u2013 the \u201cAthanasian Creed\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-286-is-the-trinity-essential-three-views\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 286 \u2013 Is the Trinity Essential? \u2013 Three Views<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-28-interview-with-dr-william-hasker-about-his-metaphysics-and-the-tripersonal-god-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 28 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-27-interview-with-dr-william-hasker-about-his-metaphysics-and-the-tripersonal-god-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 27 \u2013 Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-325-dr-jc-beall-the-contradictory-christ-part-2\/\">podcast 325 \u2013 Dr. Jc Beall \u2013 The Contradictory Christ \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-324-dr-jc-beall-the-contradictory-christ-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 324 \u2013 Dr. Jc Beall \u2013 The Contradictory Christ \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>&#8220;<a aria-label=\"abstract objects (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/abstract-objects\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">abstract objects<\/a>,&#8221; <em>Stanford Encyclopedia <\/em>of Philosophy<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/Karstenholymoly\/62739\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The night is calling (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The night is calling<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/people\/Karstenholymoly\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Kraftamt (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Kraftamt<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is there a Trinity theory which is both orthodox and coherent? One apologist&#8217;s suggestions, with commentary.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43459,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,58,9,57,77,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43455","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-creeds","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43455","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43455"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43455\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43490,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43455\/revisions\/43490"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43459"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43455"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43455"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43455"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}