{"id":43470,"date":"2021-11-08T16:22:06","date_gmt":"2021-11-08T22:22:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43470"},"modified":"2021-11-08T16:22:23","modified_gmt":"2021-11-08T22:22:23","slug":"podcast-337-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-337-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 337 &#8211; Chris Date&#8217;s Search for a Viable Trinity Theory &#8211; Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_7259\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43470-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities337.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities337.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities337.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities337.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43470-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities337.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities337.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/3-points-of-view-2.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43482\" width=\"342\" height=\"190\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/3-points-of-view-2.png 872w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/3-points-of-view-2-450x251.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/3-points-of-view-2-768x428.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 342px) 100vw, 342px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode, <strong>apologist Chris Date<\/strong> continues to develop his Trinity theory we heard the roots of <a aria-label=\"last time (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-336-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">last time<\/a>, and also adds in a new, similar but different theory. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Starting from ideas in a Psychology article, and adding some reflections based on his favorite first-person shooter video game, Chris Date suggests that one being\/substance might well have<strong> three &#8220;subjectivities&#8221; <\/strong>or points of view. This is supposed to give us an idea of &#8220;Persons&#8221; which are not beings, but rather attributes of beings (or of their experiences). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-10-30-111229.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43480\" width=\"314\" height=\"254\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-10-30-111229.png 546w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-10-30-111229-450x364.png 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 314px) 100vw, 314px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>But in principle, could such &#8220;Persons&#8221; (which are attributes\/properties\/features) do what the New Testament says that the Father and the Son do?<\/strong> I urge not &#8211; that&#8217;s the gist of my objections to his first Trinity theory here. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On <strong>his second Trinity theory<\/strong> &#8211; quickly expounded towards the end of his episode, each &#8220;Person&#8221; of the Trinity <em>is<\/em> a self. But the problem now is that they will be <em>the same<\/em> self. And so similarly, this second theory clashes with the New Testament too, ruling out the interpersonal (self to another self) relationship we see there between God and his human Son. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Towards the end, I explain why <strong>I genuinely appreciate what Chris Date is doing<\/strong>, and why I think he should keep going in his quest for a viable Trinity theory. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/fuller.academia.edu\/ChristopherDate\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Chris Date @ Academia.edu (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Chris Date @ Academia.edu<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"The Unitarian Christian Alliance Podcast (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/podcast.unitarianchristianalliance.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">T<strong>he Unitarian Christian Alliance Podcast<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/self-confusion.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43481\" width=\"416\" height=\"302\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/self-confusion.png 946w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/self-confusion-450x328.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/self-confusion-768x559.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 416px) 100vw, 416px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/podcast.unitarianchristianalliance.org\/36-the-1st-uca-conference-stacey-berger\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"UCA Podcast #36 - The 1st UCA Conference - Stacey Berger (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">UCA Podcast #36 &#8211; The 1st UCA Conference &#8211; Stacey Berger<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">UCA Podcast #38 (link coming)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-336-chris-dates-search-for-a-viable-trinity-theory-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 336 \u2013 Chris Date\u2019s Search for a Viable Trinity Theory \u2013 Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 336 \u2013 Chris Date\u2019s Search for a Viable Trinity Theory \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=6WJ-mdKdNFo\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Theopologetics 028: Can an Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity Be Logically Coherent?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/researchmgt.monash.edu\/ws\/portalfiles\/portal\/250733024\/250502161_oa.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Wozniak, &quot;\u201cI\u201d and \u201cMe\u201d: The Self in the Context of Consciousness&quot; (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Wozniak, &#8220;\u201cI\u201d and \u201cMe\u201d: The Self in the Context of Consciousness&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Zagzebski, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.baylor.edu\/content\/services\/document.php\/39971.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Omnisubjectivity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Omnisubjectivity<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Mullins, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/theopolisinstitute.com\/conversations\/the-doctrine-of-divine-simplicity\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Doctrine of Divine Simplicity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Doctrine of Divine Simplicity<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=piu1kehXf58\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Divine Simplicity Q&amp;A w\/ William Lane Craig + Ryan Mullins (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Divine Simplicity Q&amp;A w\/ William Lane Craig + Ryan Mullins<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=MeoeQCDnl3s\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Why Would Someone Hold to Divine Simplicity? (w\/ Ryan Mullins) (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Why Would Someone Hold to Divine Simplicity? (w\/ Ryan Mullins)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Mullins, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/49361531\/Divine_Simplicity_and_Modal_Collapse_A_Persistent_Problem\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Divine Simplicity and Modal Collapse: A Persistent Problem (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Divine Simplicity and Modal Collapse: A Persistent Problem<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"Does the Trinity Contradict with Classical Theism? (w\/ Ryan Mullins) (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=wfkPSZABZAg\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Does the Trinity Contradict with Classical Theism? (w\/ Ryan Mullins)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=Xh13mb4Hz1E\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"DEBATE: Trinity vs. Tawheed (Dr. James White vs. Jake Brancatella) (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">DEBATE: Trinity vs. Tawheed (Dr. James White vs. Jake Brancatella)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-302-the-stages-of-trinitarian-commitment\/\">podcast 302 \u2013 The Stages of Trinitarian Commitment<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\">podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-260-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale\u2019s opening statement (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-tuggy-brown-debate-dales-opening-statement\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale\u2019s opening statement<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is the track &#8220;<a aria-label=\"Arpanauts (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Eric_Skiff\/Resistor_Anthems\/eric_skiff_-_10_-_arpanauts\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Arpanauts<\/a>&#8221; by <a aria-label=\"Eric Skiff (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Eric_Skiff\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Eric Skiff<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Could each divine &#8220;Person&#8221; of the Trinity be either an attribute of God or God together with an attribute? <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43479,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,75,38,47,9,57,3,95],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43470","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-divine-attributes","category-monotheism","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories","category-uca"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43470","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43470"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43470\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43489,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43470\/revisions\/43489"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43479"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43470"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43470"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43470"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}