{"id":43515,"date":"2021-12-06T18:49:19","date_gmt":"2021-12-07T00:49:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43515"},"modified":"2021-12-06T18:49:34","modified_gmt":"2021-12-07T00:49:34","slug":"podcast-339-does-the-new-testament-teach-that-jesus-is-truly-divine-loke-vs-tuggy-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-339-does-the-new-testament-teach-that-jesus-is-truly-divine-loke-vs-tuggy-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 339 &#8211; Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? &#8211; Loke vs. Tuggy &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43515-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities339.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities339.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities339.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities339.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43515-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities339.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities339.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-12-06-131436.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43519\" width=\"398\" height=\"296\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-12-06-131436.png 867w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-12-06-131436-450x335.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Screenshot-2021-12-06-131436-768x572.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 398px) 100vw, 398px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In August of 2021 I debated analytic theologian and philosopher of religion Dr. Andrew Loke on the above topic for <a aria-label=\"The Analytic Christian YouTube channel (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/c\/TheAnalyticChristian\/videos\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Analytic Christian YouTube channel<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Loke makes his case by arguing that a handful of New Testament texts <strong>clearly imply<\/strong> the full deity of Jesus, focusing on ones which in his view assert that Jesus was &#8220;involved in creation&#8221; and so must be &#8220;on the creator side of the creator-creature divide.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In my opening,<strong> I argue<\/strong> that New Testament clearly teaches six things about Jesus and God which imply that Jesus is <em>not <\/em>truly divine, as he must lack certain divine attributes. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This first episode includes our opening statements and rebuttals. Next week you&#8217;ll hear the rest of the debate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Which opening case is stronger, and why? <\/strong>And including the rebuttals, in your view, which one of us makes the stronger case?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thanks to Jordan for setting this debate up and being a good moderator, and to Dr. Loke for his goodwill and clear arguments. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Given more time, there is a good bit <strong>more I would<\/strong> say about why it&#8217;s a mistake to think that the New Testament authors assert, imply, or assume that Jesus is truly and fully divine (see several of the links below). On the other hand, I&#8217;m pretty happy with <strong>my opening statement here as a summary of why we should not think the New Testament Jesus is divine<\/strong> in the way the one God is divine. Thus, I made it into the following stand-alone video:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The biblical Jesus is not fully divine\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/GJCZervdJEk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/hkbu.academia.edu\/AndrewTerErnLoke\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Dr. Loke's publications at Academia.edu (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Dr. Loke&#8217;s publications at Academia.edu<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Loke, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Christology-Society-Testament-Studies-Monograph\/dp\/1316648753\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Origin of Divine Christology (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Origin of Divine Christology<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Loke, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Incarnation-Routledge-Critical-Thinking-Religion\/dp\/1138081787\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"A Kryptic Model of the Incarnation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">A Kryptic Model of the Incarnation<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Jordan Hampton&#8217;s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/c\/TheAnalyticChristian\/videos\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Analytic Christian YouTube channel (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Analytic Christian YouTube channel<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/6k-ECuZFCsA\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The original video of this whole debate. (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The original video of this whole debate.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/letter\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-264-tuggy-vs-date-debate-jesus-is-human-and-not-divine-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 264 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-263-tuggy-vs-date-debate-jesus-is-human-and-not-divine-part-1\/\">podcast 263 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Tuggy and Date,<em> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-Divine-Essential-Christian-Debates\/dp\/1946971804\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Is Jesus Human and Not Divi (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Is Jesus Human a<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-Divine-Essential-Christian-Debates\/dp\/1946971804\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"nd Not Divine? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">nd Not Divine?<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-259-who-is-the-one-creator-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 259 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-259-who-is-the-one-creator-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 258 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-226-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-3-post-biblical-uses-of-biblical-words-and-new-words\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 226 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 3 \u2013 post-biblical uses of biblical words, and new words<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-226-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-3-post-biblical-uses-of-biblical-words-and-new-words\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 225 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 \u2013 Old \u201cLord\u201d vs. New \u201cLord\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-226-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-3-post-biblical-uses-of-biblical-words-and-new-words\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 224 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 \u2013 God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-146-jesus-exemplar-faith-new-testament\/\">podcast 146 \u2013 Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-277-was-christ-tempted-in-every-way\/\">podcast 277 \u2013 Was Christ tempted in every way?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-227-who-should-christians-worship\/\">podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-reading-of-philippians-25-11\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"a reading of Philippians 2:5-11 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>a reading of Philippians 2:5-11<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Greg_Atkinson\/Instrumentals\/Dont_Die_Dog_Instrumental\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Don't Die Dog (Instrumental) (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Don&#8217;t Die Dog (Instrumental)<\/a>&#8221;&nbsp;by&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Greg_Atkinson\">Greg Atkinson<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Opening statements and rebuttals.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43519,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,15,91,54,75,33,8,9,57,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43515","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-creation","category-debates","category-divine-attributes","category-incarnation","category-linkage","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43515","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43515"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43515\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43524,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43515\/revisions\/43524"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43519"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43515"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43515"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43515"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}