{"id":43558,"date":"2021-12-22T21:16:32","date_gmt":"2021-12-23T03:16:32","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43558"},"modified":"2021-12-22T21:16:50","modified_gmt":"2021-12-23T03:16:50","slug":"podcast-341-reflections-on-my-debate-with-dr-andrew-loke","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-341-reflections-on-my-debate-with-dr-andrew-loke\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 341 &#8211; Reflections on my debate with Dr. Andrew Loke"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6731\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43558-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities341.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities341.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities341.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities341.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43558-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities341.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities341.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/representation-for-post-1.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43563\" width=\"560\" height=\"263\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/representation-for-post-1.png 872w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/representation-for-post-1-450x211.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/representation-for-post-1-768x360.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 560px) 100vw, 560px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My recent debate with Dr. Andrew Loke about the deity of Christ was courteous but content-rich. In this episode I follow up on some of those issues and arguments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Topics include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>How Dr. Loke follows some other two natures theorists in <strong>understanding Christ&#8217;s two natures to be concrete things <\/strong>and not mere properties.<\/li><li>How this sort of two-natures theory is subject to serious <strong>too-many-sons problems<\/strong>, which is clear, for instance, in the case of the properties mortal and immortal.<\/li><li>Whether or not the alleged Christ-creator texts straightforwardly imply the falsity of any sort of <strong>subordinationism<\/strong>.<\/li><li>Dr. Loke&#8217;s suggestion that in the New Testament the Father is not one and the same with God, but rather, <strong>the Father &#8220;represents&#8221; God <\/strong>(as do Jesus and the Holy Spirit). I speculate on why he thinks this, and argue that the New Testament writings assume its falsity.<\/li><li>When we can attribute a property of a proper part to its whole, and how this applies when it comes to the essential attributes of <strong>immortality and uncreatedness.<\/strong><\/li><li>Concerns about the christological mistake called docetism.<\/li><li>Why I&#8217;ve <em>not <\/em>argued that there is only on &#8220;God&#8221; in the New Testament or only one &#8220;Lord&#8221; there, although I do observe that there is a unique god and a unique lord there.<\/li><li>Why I think it is a mistake to think that <strong>the kind of knowledge enjoyed by a perfect being <\/strong>would be merely knowing all truths, and how this affects Dr. Loke&#8217;s krypsis model of two-natures theory.<\/li><li>Why it is important evidence that the New Testament authors <strong>never warn us<\/strong> against inferring that Jesus is limited in power, knowledge, or goodness. <\/li><li>Some disagreements Dr. Loke and I seemed to have about what I think are one essential divine attribute and one essential human attribute.<\/li><li>Finally, I compare what Dr. Loke says about <strong>Jesus&#8217;s seeming denial that he is &#8220;good&#8221; in Mark 10<\/strong> with what is said about that passage by Thomas Emlyn in his famous short book <em>An Humble Inquiry<\/em>.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What did you learn from this debate? What did you think were tho most interesting exchanges?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/loke-3-lord.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43559\" width=\"433\" height=\"215\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/loke-3-lord.png 646w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/loke-3-lord-450x224.png 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 433px) 100vw, 433px\" \/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-340-does-the-new-testament-teach-that-jesus-is-truly-divine-loke-vs-tuggy-part-2\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 340 \u2013 Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? \u2013 Loke vs. Tuggy \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-339-does-the-new-testament-teach-that-jesus-is-truly-divine-loke-vs-tuggy-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 339 \u2013 Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? \u2013 Loke vs. Tuggy \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">1 Corinthians 8:4-6; John 20:24-29; John 17:1-3; Ephesians 4:4-6; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 8:54; Mark 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 1:19; Ephesians 4:13; 2 John 3; John 6:45; John 8:41; John 13:3; Acts 2:33; Ephesians 1:17; Colossians 1:3; James 1:27; James 3:9; 2 John 9; 2 Corinthians 1:2-4; Psalm 11:1, Acts 2:33-35; John 17:5, John 5:26; John 6:68; John 17:8; Mark 13:32; Mark 10:17-22.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-259-who-is-the-one-creator-part-2\/\">podcast 259 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-258-who-is-the-one-creator-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 258 \u2013 Who is the one Creator? \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"epikale?  (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.blueletterbible.org\/lexicon\/g1941\/kjv\/tr\/0-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><em>epikaleo<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"John 20:28 - Did Thomas Confess that Jesus IS God? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/PmTsuCv7oSk\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">John 20:28 &#8211; Did Thomas Confess that Jesus IS God?<\/a><br \/><a aria-label=\"God and his Son - the logic of the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/Pt_3LWElWRw\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>God and his Son &#8211; the logic of the New Testament<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/reading-comprehension-quiz-johann-171-3\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Reading comprehension quiz: Johann 17:1-3 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Reading comprehension quiz: Johann 17:1-3<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-226-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-3-post-biblical-uses-of-biblical-words-and-new-words\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 226 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 3 \u2013 post-biblical uses of biblical words, and new words<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-225-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-2-old-lord-vs-new-lord\/\">podcast 225 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 \u2013 Old \u201cLord\u201d vs. New \u201cLord\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-224-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-1-god-and-god-in-the-bible\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 224 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 \u2013 God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-77-mr-chad-mcintosh-on-the-trinity\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 77 \u2013 Mr. Chad McIntosh on the Trinity<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-76-justin-martyrs-dialogue-with-trypho-part-3\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 76 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 3<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-75-justin-martyrs-dialogue-with-trypho-part-2\/\">podcast 75 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-74-justin-martyrs-dialogue-with-trypho-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 74 \u2013 Justin Martyr\u2019s Dialogue with Trypho \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-332-emlyns-humble-inquiry\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 332 \u2013 Emlyn\u2019s Humble Inquiry (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 332 \u2013 Emlyn\u2019s Humble Inquiry<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Humble-Inquiry-Scripture-Account-Jesus-Christ\/dp\/1737578301\/\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>Emlyn\u2019s <em>An Humble Inquiry<\/em> @ Amazon<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/bock-and-loke-on-jesuss-blasphemy-in-mark-14-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Bock and Loke on Jesus\u2019s \u201cblasphemy\u201d in Mark 14 \u2013 Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Bock and Loke on Jesus\u2019s \u201cblasphemy\u201d in Mark 14 \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/bock-and-loke-on-jesuss-blasphemy-in-mark-14-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Bock and Loke on Jesus\u2019s \u201cblasphemy\u201d in Mark 14 \u2013 Part 2 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Bock and Loke on Jesus\u2019s \u201cblasphemy\u201d in Mark 14 \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/36853989\/Reply_to_reviews_of_The_Origin_of_Divine_Christology_Cambridge_University_Press_2017_\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Dr. Loke's reply to the two above posts (last 3 pages) (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Dr. Loke&#8217;s reply to the two above posts (last 3 pages)<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/s6wK-lRZP-k\" target=\"_blank\">Clarifying Catholic Christologies<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies! (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a aria-label=\"Underclocked (und (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Eric_Skiff\/Resistor_Anthems\/eric_skiff_-_02_-_underclocked_underunderclocked_mix\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Underclocked (und<\/a>erunderclocked mix)&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Eric_Skiff\">Eric Skiff<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the New Testament, is the Father God himself, or does the Father rather represent the one God?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43562,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,75,9,57,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43558","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-divine-attributes","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43558","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43558"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43558\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43576,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43558\/revisions\/43576"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43562"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43558"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43558"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43558"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}