{"id":43788,"date":"2022-05-18T21:00:49","date_gmt":"2022-05-19T02:00:49","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43788"},"modified":"2022-05-18T21:00:52","modified_gmt":"2022-05-19T02:00:52","slug":"podcast-348-novatians-on-the-trinity-part-2-two-thieves-and-three-arguments","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-348-novatians-on-the-trinity-part-2-two-thieves-and-three-arguments\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 348 &#8211; Novatian&#8217;s On the Trinity &#8211; Part 2 &#8211; Two Thieves and Three Arguments"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_2355\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43788-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities348.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities348.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities348.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities348.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43788-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities348.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities348.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft size-large is-resized\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/The_Crucifixion_Christ_on_the_Cross_between_two_thieves_f._80_Cropped-1024x840.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43795\" width=\"-1272\" height=\"-1043\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second episode (<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-347-novatians-on-the-trinity-part-1-almost-pope\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"part 1 here (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">part 1 here<\/a>) you&#8217;ll learn about the very interesting last two chapters of Novatian&#8217;s book <em>On the Trinity<\/em>, chapters which tell us so much about the range of theological opinions in mainstream Christianity in the middle of the 200s. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In chapter 30, he relates <strong>three arguments<\/strong> of his opponents, arguments from mainstream Christians who rejected the then-new logos speculations. These are what modern historians call <strong>Modalistic Monarchians and Dynamic Monarchians<\/strong>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My analyses of these arguments are as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The first, &#8220;direct&#8221; Modalistic Monarchian argument<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>There is exactly one god.   [That is: there is a god, and anything which is a god just is that aforementioned one.]  (premise) <\/li><li>Christ is a god.     (premise)<\/li><li>[The Father is a god.     (premise)]<\/li><li>Therefore, Christ just is the Father (and vice-versa). (1-3) [In other words: Christ and the Father are numerically one.]<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This argument is <a aria-label=\"valid. But, is it sound (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/iep.utm.edu\/val-snd\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">valid. But, is it sound<\/a>? Should we accept this argument as sound, or should we deny at least one premise, showing how it is unsound? What would <em>Novatian <\/em>advise? And what should a <em>trinitarian <\/em>theologian say about the argument?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The second, &#8220;indirect&#8221; Modalistic Monarchian argument<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Christ and the Father are numerically distinct. (Assumption to be refuted)<\/li><li>Christ is a god.     (premise)<\/li><li>The Father is a god.     (premise)<\/li><li>[For any x and any y, and any kind-term F, x and y are the same F only if x just is y (and vice-versa).] [In other words: being the same thing of some king implies being numerically the same.] OR 4. For any x and any y, x and y are the same god only if x and y are numerically identical.     (premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, Christ and the Father are not the same god. (1,4)<\/li><li>Therefore, there are at least two gods. (2,3,5)<\/li><li>Therefore, it is false that there is only one god. (6)<\/li><li>There is only one god.     (premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, it is not the case that Christ and the Father are numerically distinct. (1-8)<\/li><li>Therefore, Christ just is the Father (and vice-versa). [That is: Christ and the Father <em>are <\/em>numerically identical.]<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignleft size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/novatian-in-Clarke-1-cr.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43802\" width=\"444\" height=\"335\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/novatian-in-Clarke-1-cr.png 987w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/novatian-in-Clarke-1-cr-450x340.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/novatian-in-Clarke-1-cr-768x580.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 444px) 100vw, 444px\" \/><figcaption>A quotation and translation of Novatian&#8217;s <em>On the Trinity<\/em> in Samuel Clarke&#8217;s <em>The Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity<\/em>, first published in 1712.<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Again, the argument seems <a aria-label=\"valid (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/iep.utm.edu\/val-snd\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">valid<\/a>, and so either we must deny at least one premise (showing the argument to be unsound), or accept the conclusion (so that the argument is sound). What should we say? What should a trinitarian say? What does Novatian say?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The third argument <\/strong>comes from a very different brand of &#8220;Monarchian&#8221; Christians: what historians call the &#8220;Dynamic Monarchians,&#8221; or in <strong>present-day terms, biblical unitarians<\/strong>. These are mainstream Christians who rejected speculations that Christ had &#8220;two natures,&#8221; human and divine. Instead, they insisted, with Peter, that Jesus is &#8220;a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him&#8221; (Acts 2:22, NIV). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The Dynamic Monarchian argument<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Christ is a god.  (Assumption to be refuted)<\/li><li>The Father is a god.     (premise)<\/li><li>Christ and the Father are numerically distinct.     (premise)<\/li><li>[For any x and any y, and any kind-term F, x and y are the same F only if x just is y (and vice-versa).] [In other words: being the same thing of some king implies being numerically the same.] OR 4. For any x and any y, x and y are the same god only if x and y are numerically identical.     (premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, Christ and the Father are not the same god. (3,4)<\/li><li>Therefore, there are at least two gods. (1,2,5)<\/li><li>Therefore, it is false that there is only one god. (6)<\/li><li>There is only one god.     (premise) <\/li><li>Therefore, it is false that Christ is a god. (1-8)<\/li><li>Therefore, Christ is not a god. (9) <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Again, the argument seems to be valid. What will Novatian do? After all, he seems <strong>committed to the truth <\/strong>of each of the four premises (2, 3, 4, 8)! So if the argument really is valid, he will thereby already be committed to the truth of the conclusion, step 10.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In trying to diagnose where these &#8220;heretics&#8221; go wrong, Novatian discusses what I&#8217;ll call:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The Lord\/Master\/Good argument<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>There is only one F &#8211; call it a.<\/li><li>There is some b which is numerically distinct from a, and b is rightly called &#8220;F.&#8221;<\/li><li>Therefore, there are at least two Fs.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Novatian&#8217;s point is that an argument like this is invalid &#8211; that 3 doesn&#8217;t follow from 1 and 2. And surely he is right about that. But none of the Monarchian arguments just surveyed seems to rely on any such crude mistake, e.g. on confusing <em>being <\/em>a god with being <em>called <\/em>&#8220;God&#8221; or &#8220;a god.&#8221; When those arguments mention the claim that &#8220;Christ is a god&#8221; they mean this<em> in the sense in which logos theorists like Novatian mean it.<\/em> And clearly, Novatian and company do not mean only to say that the word <em>deus <\/em>can be applied to Christ! <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>At the end of the day, Novatian&#8217;s responses to these first three Monarchian arguments <em>are <\/em>clear enough.<\/strong> Moreover, in my view, he is clearly <em>correct <\/em>about all three of them! Do you agree? Why or why not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Novatian-in-Clarke-2-cr-782x1024.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43804\" width=\"453\" height=\"591\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brepols.net\/Pages\/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9782503544915-1\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Novatian (Papandrea, trans.) On the Trinity, Letters to Cyprian of Carthage, Ethical Treatises (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Novatian (Papandrea, trans.) <em>On the Trinity<\/em><\/strong><em>, Letters to Cyprian of Cartha<\/em>ge, Ethical Treatises<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Papandrea,<em>&nbsp;<\/em><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Culmination-Pre-Nicene-Orthodoxy-Princeton-Theological-ebook\/dp\/B00Q5A6XNW\/ref=sr_1_1?crid=15H0HLXYVKO2X&amp;keywords=Novatian+of+Rome+and+the+Culmination+of+Pre-Nicene+Orthodoxy&amp;qid=1652105197&amp;sprefix=novatian+of+rome+and+the+culmination+of+pre-nicene+orthodoxy%2Caps%2C83&amp;sr=8-1\" target=\"_blank\" class=\"ek-link\"><em>Novatian of Rome and the Culminat<\/em>ion of Pre-Nicene Orthodoxy<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Novatian (DeSimone, trans.)&nbsp;<em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Trinity-Spectacles-Letters-Fathers-Patristic\/dp\/0813215463\/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2N5J3SDS23NPQ&amp;keywords=The+Trinity%2C+The+Spectacles%2C+Jewish+Foods%2C+In+Praise+of+Purity%2C+Letters&amp;qid=1652105240&amp;sprefix=the+trinity%2C+the+spectacles%2C+jewish+foods%2C+in+praise+of+purity%2C+letters%2Caps%2C100&amp;sr=8-1\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Trinity<\/a><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Trinity-Spectacles-Letters-Fathers-Patristic\/dp\/0813215463\/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2N5J3SDS23NPQ&amp;keywords=The+Trinity%2C+The+Spectacles%2C+Jewish+Foods%2C+In+Praise+of+Purity%2C+Letters&amp;qid=1652105240&amp;sprefix=the+trinity%2C+the+spectacles%2C+jewish+foods%2C+in+praise+of+purity%2C+letters%2Caps%2C100&amp;sr=8-1\" target=\"_blank\">, The Spectacles, Jewish Foods, In Praise of Purity, Letters<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-271-does-your-trinity-theory-require-relative-identity\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 271 \u2013 Does your Trinity theory require relative identity?<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-224-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-1-god-and-god-in-the-bible\/\">podcast 224 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 \u2013 God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\">podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-and-his-son-the-logic-of-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 291 \u2013 From one God to two gods to three \u201cGods\u201d \u2013 John 1 and early Christian theologies (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-291-from-one-god-to-two-gods-to-three-gods-john-1-and-early-christian-theologies\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 291 \u2013 From one God to two gods to three \u201cGods\u201d \u2013 John 1 and early Christian theologies<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Clarke, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/archive.org\/details\/scripturedoctrin00clar\/page\/n5\/mode\/2up\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/koi-discovery\/gaz-mask\/initial-bridge\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"initial bridge (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">initial bridge<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/koi-discovery\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Koi-discovery (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Koi-discovery<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dr. Dale Tuggy - &quot;What John 1 Meant&quot; (Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference 2021)\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/Ty5ppDAwHOk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A very revealing collection of mid-third-century theological arguments.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43795,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[21,16,15,75,100,10,5,101,38,9,57,94,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43788","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-divine-attributes","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-logic","category-modalism","category-modalistic-monarchian","category-monotheism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-socinian","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43788","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43788"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43788\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43807,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43788\/revisions\/43807"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43795"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43788"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43788"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43788"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}