{"id":43812,"date":"2022-07-12T21:54:23","date_gmt":"2022-07-13T02:54:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43812"},"modified":"2022-07-13T09:55:16","modified_gmt":"2022-07-13T14:55:16","slug":"podcast-349-craig-tuggy-dialogue-on-trinitarian-vs-unitarian-theologies","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-349-craig-tuggy-dialogue-on-trinitarian-vs-unitarian-theologies\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 349 &#8211; Craig-Tuggy dialogue on trinitarian vs. unitarian theologies"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6586\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43812-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities349.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities349.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities349.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities349.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43812-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities349.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities349.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bill-and-Dale.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43813\" width=\"469\" height=\"346\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bill-and-Dale.png 783w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bill-and-Dale-450x332.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Bill-and-Dale-768x567.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 469px) 100vw, 469px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On July 11, 2022 I had the privilege of dialoguing for about an hour with Dr. William Lane Craig on Jordan Hampton&#8217;s <a aria-label=\"Analytic Christian YouTube channel (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/c\/TheAnalyticChristian\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Analytic Christian YouTube channel<\/a>. Our official topics were (1) Dr. Craig&#8217;s Trinity theory and my objections to it, and (2) my unitarian Christian view of the one God, and Dr. Craig&#8217;s objections thereto. In this short but spirited exchange, I lodge biblical and philosophical objection to his Trinity theory, and he urges that my views are refuted by rather obvious deity of Christ texts. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Topics include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>What Dr. Craig calls &#8220;the biblical doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; as opposed to later and more complicated, creedal Trinity theories (he only wants to defend the former)<\/li><li>Dr. Craig&#8217;s own model of &#8220;the Trinity,&#8221; which he now calls &#8220;tripersonal theism&#8221;<\/li><li>God as &#8220;soul&#8221; with three sets of cognitive faculties &#8211; and Dr. Craig&#8217;s claim that this one soul clearly makes the view monotheistic.<\/li><li>The &#8220;Persons&#8221; of the Trinity as selves and God\/the Trinity as not a self.<\/li><li>Dr. Craig&#8217;s claim that despite not being a self God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent &#8211; which I object entail being a self, and his reply that a being with those qualities need only be &#8220;personal.&#8221; <\/li><li>His claim that the biblical authors are trinitarians and my objection that it is then baffling why there are no trinitarians in church history from Justin to Eusebius! And my objection that this shows that the NT books do not <em>obviously <\/em>imply the full deity of Christ, contrary to his assertions.<\/li><li>My objection that one soul with three cognitive faculties each sufficient for personhood would be a single self over-determined to be so, not three persons. <\/li><li>Whether Dr. Craig&#8217;s theology requires the &#8220;Persons&#8221; of the Trinity to be proper parts of it.<\/li><li>Why Dr. Craig calls God the Trinity &#8220;he\/him&#8221; and not &#8220;them&#8221; or &#8220;it&#8221; despite his denial that God the Trinity is a self\/person.<\/li><li>My observation that there seemingly were no controversies in the New Testament era about whether or not God is multipersonal &#8211; which seems to be good evidence that the early Christians were not implying any such claims.<\/li><li>How the New Testament authors portray Jesus as having limits that a divine Person would not have &#8211; without embarrassment, warning, qualification, or explanation, e.g. limited knowledge, mortality, being a mediator.  <\/li><li>My claim that the NT authors never assert or assume or imply that Christ is the one true God and Dr. Craig&#8217;s claim that a few passages do imply or even state that.<\/li><li>My observation that his Persons must be substances, i.e. individual entities, and his doubts about that.  <\/li><li>That in the New Testament writings lack any word or phrase which was then understood to refer to a tripersonal god, which seems strong evidence that these authors did not believe in a tripersonal God.<\/li><li>My objection that God did not, in the first century, reveal himself as a Trinity &#8211; as evidenced by no one believing it then.<\/li><li>Dr. Craig&#8217;s objection to my understanding of New Testament theology that ancient people did con have the concept of numerical identity.<\/li><li>Dr. Craig&#8217;s claim that any unitarian will be driven to &#8220;extreme views&#8221; about the meaning of scriptural texts.<\/li><li>Dr. Craig&#8217;s claim that New Testament authors never identify either the Father or Son with God, but only predicate divinity of each.<\/li><li>How a Logos-theory reading of John 1 is not consistent with trinitarianism<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the next episode I&#8217;ll share some reflections on the discussion and even give a few corrections.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"John 20:28 - Did Thomas Confess that Jesus IS God?\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/PmTsuCv7oSk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/zZIepfBcD94\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"the original video (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">the original video<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=Ew32U1gyOc8&amp;list=PLlVH-ThCazKmStWtxqvoCPP3QD_mhfCI8\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"his Trinity playlist (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">his Trinity playlist<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.reasonablefaith.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Dr. Craig's ministry Reasonable Faith (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Dr. Craig&#8217;s ministry Reasonable Faith<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-and-his-son-the-logic-of-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-70-the-one-god-and-his-son-according-to-john\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/nb4TogqyTrw\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"What John 1 Meant (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>What John 1 Meant<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-302-the-stages-of-trinitarian-commitment\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 302 \u2013 The Stages of Trinitarian Commitment (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 302 \u2013 The Stages of Trinitarian Commitment<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"On Numerical Sameness \/ Identity \/ \u201cAbsolute\u201d Identity (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/on-numerical-sameness-identity-absolute-identity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>On Numerical Sameness \/ Identity \/ \u201cAbsolute\u201d Identity<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/a-reading-of-philippians-25-11\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"a reading of Philippians 2:5-11 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">a reading of Philippians 2:5-11<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/qN7gDRjTNf4\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"&quot;There you go again.&quot; (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">&#8220;There you go again.&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-224-biblical-words-for-god-and-for-his-son-part-1-god-and-god-in-the-bible\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 224 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 \u2013 God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 224 \u2013 Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 \u2013 God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Passages discussed in this episode: John 10:34-36; Philippians 2:5-11; John 17:1-3; Revelation 4-5; 1 John 5:20; John 20:17; John 20:31-32; John 1:1-18; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:8-9; Psalm 45. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/Sky_Ship\/Jesse_Spillane_-_Sky_Ship_-_03_Green_Monster\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Green Monster (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Green Monster<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Jesse Spillane (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Jesse Spillane<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"> <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Discussing trinitarian vs. unitarian Christian theologies with Dr. William Lane Craig.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43813,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,54,14,38,9,57,77,3,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43812","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-debates","category-history","category-monotheism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43812","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43812"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43812\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43826,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43812\/revisions\/43826"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43813"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43812"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43812"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43812"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}