{"id":43828,"date":"2022-07-18T21:56:42","date_gmt":"2022-07-19T02:56:42","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43828"},"modified":"2022-07-18T21:56:45","modified_gmt":"2022-07-19T02:56:45","slug":"podcast-350-thoughts-on-my-dialogue-with-craig-on-the-trinity-and-the-bible-part-1","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-350-thoughts-on-my-dialogue-with-craig-on-the-trinity-and-the-bible-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 350 &#8211; Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible &#8211; Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_250\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43828-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities350.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities350.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities350.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities350.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43828-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities350.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities350.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Craig-and-Tuggy-ep-350-1024x662.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43839\" width=\"503\" height=\"325\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Craig-and-Tuggy-ep-350-1024x662.png 1024w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Craig-and-Tuggy-ep-350-450x291.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Craig-and-Tuggy-ep-350-768x497.png 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Craig-and-Tuggy-ep-350-1536x994.png 1536w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Craig-and-Tuggy-ep-350.png 1552w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 503px) 100vw, 503px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My recent <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-349-craig-tuggy-dialogue-on-trinitarian-vs-unitarian-theologies\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"one-hour dialogue with Dr. William Lane Craig (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">one-hour dialogue with Dr. William Lane Craig<\/a> featured a number of interesting exchanges, as well as what I believe is Dr. Craig&#8217;s first publicly distinguishing between a <strong>creedal Trinity doctrine<\/strong> (which he doesn&#8217;t defend) and what he calls a minimal and biblical Trinity doctrine (which he does defend). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this podcast, I reflect on the discussion, and even try to &#8220;<a aria-label=\"steelman (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/en.wiktionary.org\/wiki\/steelman\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">steel man<\/a>&#8221; Dr. Craig&#8217;s definition of<strong> a minimal and biblical Trinity doctrine<\/strong>. He distinguishes such a theory from his Trinity monotheism (one soul with three cognitive faculties) and from a full-blown creedal Trinity doctrine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One way to develop his minimal &#8220;tripersonal theism&#8221; is this collection of claims:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The Father is a self who is a proper part of God.<\/li><li>The Son is a self who is a proper part of God.<\/li><li>The Holy Spirit is a self is a self who is a proper part of God.<\/li><li>The Father is not the Son. (Or: The Father is not the same person as the Son.)<\/li><li>The Son is not the Holy Spirit. (Or: The Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit.)<\/li><li>The Father is not the Holy Spirit. (Or: The Father is not the same person as the Holy Spirit.<\/li><li>There is only one God.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That&#8217;s one try; but it seems to me that it can&#8217;t be what Dr. Craig wants. So I consider another version of 1-3:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\" type=\"a\"><li>The Father is a self who is divine in a greater way than any angel or mere human but in a lesser way than God.<\/li><li>The Son is a self who is divine in a greater way than any angel or mere human but in a lesser way than God.<\/li><li>The Holy Spirit is a self who is divine in a greater way than any angel or mere human but in a lesser way than God.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">About his more elaborate <strong>&#8220;Trinity monotheism<\/strong>&#8221; (the Trinity is one soul which has three cognitive faculties, and therefore &#8220;is&#8221; three selves), I argue that these speculations suffer from unintelligibility and incoherence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I also discuss an argument which it seems to me is governing how Dr. Craig sees God-statements in the New Testament:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Any application of the term &#8220;God&#8221; to someone in the New Testament which is not a case of direct address to him is either predicative (i.e. describing him as divine in some sense) or identifying (i.e. identifying him with God), but not both.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 (premise)<\/li><li>All such predicative or identifying statements about the Father and the Son are true.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 (premise)<\/li><li>In the New Testament the Son and the Father are sometimes called &#8220;God&#8221; in the same sense.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 (premise)<\/li><li>If that same sense were identifying, then the Son and the Father would each be identical to the one God. (2)<\/li><li>If the Son and the Father were each identical with the one God, then the Son and the Father would be identical with one another. (premise)<\/li><li>But it is false that the Son and the Father are identical with one another. (premise)<\/li><li>Therefore, whenever any New Testament author says that the Father or the Son &#8220;is God,&#8221; he must be predicating divinity of him (i.e. describing him as in some sense divine). (1-6)<\/li><li>Therefore, no New Testament author ever applies the word &#8220;God&#8221; to the Father or to the Son in order to identify him with God. (1,7)<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">While the argument isn&#8217;t obviously unsound, neither is it obviously sound. We need to be given reasons for thinking premises 1 and 3 are true. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Finally, I argue against Dr. Craig&#8217;s claim <strong>that ancient people can no concept of identity<\/strong>, and so could not, for instance, have been identifying the Father with the one God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In part 2 I&#8217;ll get more into Dr. Craig&#8217;s biblical objections to my own unitarian Christian theology and christology.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My<strong> less philosophical, more big-picture conversation with Sean Finnegan<\/strong> about my dialogue with Dr. Craig is here:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dale Tuggy Comments on His Debate with William Lane Craig\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/bj_WLXoL90I?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Philosophical-Foundations-Christian-Worldview-Moreland\/dp\/0830851879\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Restitutio podcast (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Restitutio podcast<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-232-trinity-club-orientation\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 232 \u2013 Trinity Club Orientation<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#TrinInc\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"an incoherent Trinity theory (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">an incoherent Trinity theory<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-260-how-to-argue-that-the-bible-is-trinitarian\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 260 \u2013 How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#RelIde\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"relative identity Trinity theories (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">relative identity Trinity theories<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Fred Sanders\u2019s <a href=\"http:\/\/scriptoriumdaily.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/10\/Warfield-Trinity-Study-Edition.pdf\">Study of Edition of Warfield\u2019s \u201cTrinity\u201d<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Commentary-Gospel-According-Fathers-Patristic\/dp\/0813210291\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Origen's Commentary on John (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Origen&#8217;s Commentary on John<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/god-and-his-son-the-logic-of-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">God and his Son: the logic of the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">John 17:1-3; John 20:17<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"God and his Son - the logic of the New Testament - part 3 of 3\" width=\"1200\" height=\"900\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/nHPKzIGrJkQ?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/diversion\/retrofuturistic-space-atrium\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Retrofuturistic  (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Retrofuturistic <\/a>Space Atrium&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/\" class=\"ek-link\">Jesse Spillane<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Some critical thinking about Craig&#8217;s Trinity theories: his Trinity monotheism and his minimal tripersonal monotheism.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43839,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,54,10,38,9,57,77,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43828","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-debates","category-logic","category-monotheism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43828","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43828"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43828\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43847,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43828\/revisions\/43847"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43839"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43828"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43828"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43828"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}