{"id":43851,"date":"2022-07-28T12:37:53","date_gmt":"2022-07-28T17:37:53","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43851"},"modified":"2022-07-28T12:37:57","modified_gmt":"2022-07-28T17:37:57","slug":"podcast-351-thoughts-on-my-dialogue-with-craig-on-the-trinity-and-the-bible-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-351-thoughts-on-my-dialogue-with-craig-on-the-trinity-and-the-bible-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 351 &#8211; Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible &#8211; Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9327\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43851-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities351.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities351.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities351.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities351.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43851-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities351.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities351.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/whachutalkingbout.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43852\" width=\"372\" height=\"283\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/whachutalkingbout.png 562w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/whachutalkingbout-450x342.png 450w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 372px) 100vw, 372px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second part of my post-dialogue thoughts, I address in depth Dr. Craig&#8217;s &#8220;deity of Christ&#8221; proof-texts, as well as his appeal to &#8220;Sharp&#8217;s Rule&#8221; in relation to Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. Does this alleged rule of Greek grammar to show that the authors there assert &#8220;the deity of Christ&#8221;? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">With some help from previous unitarian scholars, I show why it is pointless to argue against a unitarian using that alleged rule, and I also point out that Dr. Craig <em>ought not<\/em> assert Sharp&#8217;s rule, as the point of it is to read those passages as collapsing together Jesus and God &#8211; which Dr. Craig and I agree<a aria-label=\" is a huge mistake (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"> is a huge mistake<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I also fess up to some historical mistakes I made about these texts regarding Tertullian, Origen, and generally how pre-Nicene authors did and didn&#8217;t use these texts. I go looking for early references to 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, and what I find is both surprising and revealing!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Finally, I review the many facts I pointed out in our dialogue which together constitute <em>strong <\/em>evidence against thinking that the New Testament authors are trinitarians &#8211; facts that Dr. Craig did not address. These are facts which no student of Scripture should ignore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; John 10:34-36; John 1:18; John 1:1; Hebrews 1:8-9; Psalm 45:6-7; 1 John 5:20; 2 Peter 1:1; Matthew 16:18; Philippians 2:11; John 20:30-31; Matthew 16:15-16; Titus 1:4; Titus 2:14; 2 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:17; Revelation 1:17.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-350-thoughts-on-my-dialogue-with-craig-on-the-trinity-and-the-bible-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 350 \u2013 Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-349-craig-tuggy-dialogue-on-trinitarian-vs-unitarian-theologies\/\">podcast 349 \u2013 Craig-Tuggy dialogue on trinitarian vs. unitarian theologies<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Harris, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-God-Testament-Theos-Reference\/dp\/160608108X\/\" class=\"ek-link\">Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>BeDuhn, <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Truth-Translation-Accuracy-Translations-Testament\/dp\/0761825568\/\" class=\"ek-link\">Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-334-who-do-you-say-i-am\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 334 \u2013 \u201cWho do you say I am?\u201d<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-227-who-should-christians-worship\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-263-tuggy-vs-date-debate-jesus-is-human-and-not-divine-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 263 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 263 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-264-tuggy-vs-date-debate-jesus-is-human-and-not-divine-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 264 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 2 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 264 \u2013 Tuggy vs. Date debate \u2013 Jesus is human and not divine \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-344-craigs-contradictory-christ-part-2\/\">podcast 344 \u2013 Craig\u2019s Contradictory Christ \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-343-craigs-contradictory-christ-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 343 \u2013 Craig\u2019s Contradictory Christ \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-253-the-apostle-paul-a-unitarian\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 253 \u2013 The Apostle Paul a Unitarian (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 253 \u2013 The Apostle Paul a Unitarian<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a aria-label=\"Norton, A statement for reasons for not believing the doctrines of Trinitarians, concerning the nature of God and the person of Christ (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/statement-believing-doctrines-Trinitarians-concerning\/dp\/1425561322\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Norton, <\/a><em><a aria-label=\"Norton, A statement for reasons for not believing the doctrines of Trinitarians, concerning the nature of God and the person of Christ (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/statement-believing-doctrines-Trinitarians-concerning\/dp\/1425561322\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">A statement for reasons for not believing the doctrines of Trinitarians, concerning the nature of God and the person of Christ<\/a> <\/em>(<a aria-label=\"free pdf (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/books\/edition\/A_Statement_for_Reasons_for_Not_Believin\/e0fr0PXtkXYC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=0\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">free pdf<\/a>)<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Middleton, <em><a aria-label=\"The Doctrine of the Greek Article Applied to the Criticism and Illustration of the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/books\/edition\/The_Doctrine_of_the_Greek_Article\/WBgVAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=0\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Doctrine of the Greek Article Applied to the Criticism and Illustration of the New Testament<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/jesus-god-and-an-inconsistent-triad\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"On not Confusing Together Jesus and God (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">On not Confusing Together Jesus and God<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies! (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 124 \u2013 a challenge to \u201cJesus is God\u201d apologists<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week\u2019s thinking music is \u201c<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/Jesse_Spillane\/diversion\/retrofuturistic-space-atrium\/\" target=\"_blank\" class=\"ek-link\">Retrofuturistic Space Atrium\u201d by Jesse Spillane.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Granville Sharp&#039;s Rule Exposed\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/ObRu_dbWBdY?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is the &#8220;Granville Sharp Rule&#8221; + 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 &#8220;fatal to unitarianism&#8221;?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43852,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,54,14,101,47,9,57,77,102,94,13,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43851","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-debates","category-history","category-modalistic-monarchian","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-sharps-rule","category-socinian","category-theologians","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43851","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43851"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43851\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43874,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43851\/revisions\/43874"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43852"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43851"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43851"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43851"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}