{"id":43958,"date":"2022-09-25T19:38:28","date_gmt":"2022-09-26T00:38:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=43958"},"modified":"2022-09-25T19:38:36","modified_gmt":"2022-09-26T00:38:36","slug":"podcast-355-dr-steven-nemes-on-trinity-theories-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-355-dr-steven-nemes-on-trinity-theories-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 355 \u2013 Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories \u2013 Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1147\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43958-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities355.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities355.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities355.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities355.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=43958-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities355.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities355.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this second half of our wide-ranging conversation inspired by his <a aria-label=\"epic tweet thread on Trinity theories (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/snemes2\/status\/1555557262751440896\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">epic tweet thread on Trinity theories<\/a>, our topics include: the <strong>&#8220;Persons&#8221; of the Trinity as modes<\/strong>, the New Testament authors as &#8220;primitive&#8221; theologians, divine simplicity, &#8220;social&#8221; Trinity theories, divine processions or lack thereof, mythological tales about what the three Persons before creation, the misfit between Scriptural language and trinitarian language, what I call &#8220;<strong>the problem of the missing Amigo<\/strong>,&#8221; standards of intellectual rigor in theology, &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; as a shibboleth, the recent idea that to show his solidarity with us God himself died on the cross for us, the traditional idea of divine impassibility, mysterian defenses of trinitarian traditions, how we could know what exactly it is that The Tradition demands about &#8220;the Trinity,&#8221; <strong>how Trinity theories relate to religious freedom<\/strong>, Roman Catholics&#8217; relatively recent embrace of religious freedom and tolerance, why Dr. Nemes considers himself to be a <strong>post-catholic<\/strong> theologian, religious minorities in traditionally Eastern Orthodox countries like Romania and Russia, God&#8217;s allowing theological and practical errors within mainstream Christianity, how we should view the &#8220;ecumenical creeds,&#8221; <strong>how &#8220;consensus&#8221; was reached<\/strong> at the end of the &#8220;Arian&#8221; controversy, converts to Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Dr. Nemes&#8217; view that Trinity theories should be viewed as <strong>tolerable opinions but not dogma<\/strong>, paradigm shifts, the value of reason and reasonable arguments in theology, <em>odium theologicum<\/em>, and  apologetics as trash-talking the &#8220;heretics.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thanks to Dr. Nemes for a good conversation!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image caption-align-center\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Constantine_burning_Arian_books-740x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43969\" width=\"484\" height=\"670\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Constantine_burning_Arian_books-740x1024.jpg 740w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Constantine_burning_Arian_books-325x450.jpg 325w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Constantine_burning_Arian_books-768x1063.jpg 768w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Constantine_burning_Arian_books.jpg 1016w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 484px) 100vw, 484px\" \/><figcaption>9th c. image of the emperor Constantine having &#8220;Arian&#8221; books burned (<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Arius#\/media\/File:Constantine_burning_Arian_books.jpg\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"credit (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">credit<\/a>)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/stevennemes.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><strong>Dr. Nemes\u2019s website<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/snemes2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Dr. Nemes @ Twitter<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/snemes2\/status\/1555557262751440896\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Dr. Nemes\u2019s Tweet thread which inspired this conversation.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/#OneSelThe\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Barth &amp; Rahner on the Trinity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Barth &amp; Rahner on the Trinity<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/theopolisinstitute.com\/conversations\/the-doctrine-of-divine-simplicity\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"divine simplicity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">divine simplicity<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"Classical Theism: Is God Personal Like Us? Ryan Mullins + Steven Nemes (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=PQyEO7cOExc\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Classical Theism: Is God Personal Like Us? Ryan Mullins + Steven Nemes<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies! (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-31-william-hasker-on-the-arian-controversy\/\">podcast 31 \u2013 Dr. William Hasker on the \u201cArian\u201d Controversy<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-22-a-cure-for-odium-theologicum\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 22 \u2013 a cure for odium theologicum<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-271-does-your-trinity-theory-require-relative-identity\/\">podcast 271 \u2013 Does your Trinity theory require relative identity?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/iep.utm.edu\/reli-div\/#SH3c\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"&quot;There is no salvation outside the Church.&quot;  (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>&#8220;There is no salvation outside the Church.&#8221; <\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/10-steps-towards-getting-less-confused-about-the-trinity-6-get-a-date-part-2\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #6 get a date \u2013 part 2 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity \u2013 #6 get a date \u2013 part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Wolfhart_Pannenberg\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Wolfhart Pannenberg (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Wolfhart Pannenberg<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-248-how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-bible\/\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 248 \u2013 How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/how-trinity-theories-conflict-with-the-new-testament\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=evolution+of+my+views\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">the evolution of my views on the Trinity<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">James 3:13-18<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/mr-smith\/guitarista\/la-bella\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"La Bella (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">La Bella<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/mr-smith\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Mr. Smith (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Mr. Smith<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Did fourth century Christians come to a consensus about &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221;?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":43968,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,6,58,75,88,4,14,56,20,9,57,77,96,76,13,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43958","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-complaints","category-creeds","category-divine-attributes","category-eastern-orthodoxy","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-history","category-interview","category-mystery","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-religious-freedom","category-roman-catholicism","category-theologians","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43958","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43958"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43958\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":43976,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43958\/revisions\/43976"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43968"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43958"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43958"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43958"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}