{"id":4400,"date":"2013-03-21T04:18:15","date_gmt":"2013-03-21T08:18:15","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=4400"},"modified":"2016-03-20T21:54:08","modified_gmt":"2016-03-21T01:54:08","slug":"credo-house-ministries-misinfomation-about-the-trinity-and-the-council-of-nicea","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/credo-house-ministries-misinfomation-about-the-trinity-and-the-council-of-nicea\/","title":{"rendered":"Credo House Ministries&#8217; Inaccuracies about the Trinity and the Council of Nicea"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><a href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-4402\" style=\"border: 11px solid white;\" src=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa-300x300.jpg\" alt=\"Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa-420x420.jpg 420w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa-460x460.jpg 460w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa-90x90.jpg 90w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Unimpressed-Mona-Lisa.jpg 481w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/><\/a>I&#8217;ve blogged about these folks <a title=\"post on Parchment and Pen\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/2572\" target=\"_blank\">before<\/a>. I do <em>not<\/em> enjoy criticizing apologists, because I think <strong>Christian apologetics is important<\/strong>. And the folks at <a title=\"Credo House\" href=\"http:\/\/www.reclaimingthemind.org\/\" target=\"_blank\">Credo House Ministries<\/a> seem like good-hearted and hard working Christians who are doing their best to help Christians love God with their minds. And I think Patton is an excellent blogger and writer.<\/p>\n<p>But I feel compelled to <strong>correct some of their inaccurate statements<\/strong> about &#8220;the&#8221; doctrine of the Trinity. <a title=\"video: myth #5\" href=\"http:\/\/www.reclaimingthemind.org\/blog\/2012\/06\/10-myths-about-god-5-the-trinity-was-invented\/\" target=\"_blank\">In this video<\/a>, they want to <strong>correct the myth that<\/strong> &#8220;The Trinity&#8221; &#8211; by which they mean &#8220;the&#8221; doctrine of the Trinity, or rather, the widely accepted catholic creedal formulas -&#8220;was invented.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>Well, given that it is a <em>doctrine<\/em> which we&#8217;re talking about, a theory, which didn&#8217;t exist in BC times, <em>of course<\/em> it was &#8220;invented,&#8221; i.e first formulated and stated by some folks.<\/p>\n<p>But it actually wasn&#8217;t in 325, at Nicea! That formula, as then understood, was consistent with Christian unitarian theology.<\/p>\n<p>But <strong>let&#8217;s go through <a title=\"Myth #5 The Trinity was invented\" href=\"http:\/\/www.reclaimingthemind.org\/blog\/2012\/06\/10-myths-about-god-5-the-trinity-was-invented\/\" target=\"_blank\">their video<\/a>.<br \/>\n<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>1:10 &#8211; they actually start<\/li>\n<li>1:38 &#8211; &#8220;one God who eternally exists in three persons&#8221; &#8211; the vague but standard formulation nowadays.<\/li>\n<li>2:00 &#8211; Monotheism: good. But three &#8220;persons&#8221; in &#8220;the Godhead.&#8221;<\/li>\n<li>2:25 &#8211; Nope, not in the Bible. <em>Correct<\/em>. BUT \u00a0the &#8220;concept&#8221; is there.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Comment: there&#8217;s <strong>no term expressing the concept<\/strong> of a tripersonal deity anywhere in the Bible. So they can only mean that things the writers say <em>imply<\/em> that they had it. OK, then, what are these things?<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Baptismal formula at the end of Matthew. Jesus and his Father both called &#8220;God.&#8221;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but <a title=\"arguments analyzed\" href=\"http:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/trinity-history.html#NewTes\" target=\"_blank\">that won&#8217;t do<\/a>. Yes, I know they could and do add to those claims. (I&#8217;ll discuss their biblical argument to the Trinity in another post.) For now: these claims <strong>do not, even taken all together, <em>imply<\/em> <\/strong>the existence of a deity somehow containing three equally divine persons. The most you can say is that you have a theory which <strong><em>best explains<\/em><\/strong> those true statements. But so long as you think the Bible implies your theory, you&#8217;ll see no need to show why your theory is a better explanation of the texts than its rivals. You&#8217;ll just cite the texts, and say, &#8220;See?&#8221;<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>3:10 &#8211; They urge that &#8220;the&#8221; Trinity doctrine (which Christians already believed) was <strong>merely &#8220;articulated more fully&#8221; at Nicea<\/strong> in 325.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>No<\/strong>, not really. It was <a title=\"post on Hodgson\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/4334\" target=\"_blank\">still subordinationist<\/a> (both <a title=\"post on subordinationism\" href=\"http:\/\/www.reclaimingthemind.org\/blog\/2010\/06\/heresies-subordinationalism-a-lesser-christ\/\" target=\"_blank\">ontological <em>and<\/em> functional<\/a>) unitarian theology, but they foisted the controversial new term <em>homoousios<\/em> onto the bishops and everyone else, leading directly to decades of strife. They managed to exclude the &#8220;Arians&#8221; (although this went back and forth in the ensuing fight, and councils multiplied and emperors changed) but no one was looking back on the council and saying, &#8220;I&#8217;m glad we finally clarified <em>that<\/em>!&#8221; However, a coalition eventually did rally around the new term, and then insisted on it as a shibboleth. This, as interpreted by the &#8220;Cappadocians,&#8221; was enshrined in the catholic tradition in 381, and shortly thereafter enforced by the might of the empire. The era of open Christian theologizing was <a title=\"Theodosius I begins to persecute\" href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Edict_of_Thessalonica\" target=\"_blank\">over as of 380<\/a>.<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>3:30 <strong>Basic story of the Nicea council<\/strong>, according to Mr. Kimberly. Problem was that this Arius said &#8220;Jesus wasn&#8217;t God.&#8221; Council says: yes he is. Council declares the three to be one God.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Sorry, gentlemen, but this is <strong>not accurate<\/strong>. That wasn&#8217;t the debate &#8211; it was essentially <a title=\"post on Stuart on Nicea\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/4334\" target=\"_blank\">one brand of unitarian subordinationism vs. another<\/a> (though they wouldn&#8217;t have described it that way). This was <a title=\"trinitarian or unitarian? series\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=+trinitarian+or+unitarian%3F&amp;searchsubmit=\" target=\"_blank\">not a new thing<\/a>, in the grand scheme. And the council <em>did not<\/em> declare a triune, tri-personal deity, contrary to much catholic lore, up to the present day.<\/p>\n<p>What it did, was assert the new and unclear claim that the Father and Son were &#8220;same substance&#8221; (<em>homoousios<\/em>) And even though the creed starts off professing belief in <strong>&#8220;one God, the Father,&#8221;<\/strong> this mysterious substance-sharing makes the Son <strong>&#8220;true God from true God.&#8221;<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>What?<\/strong> To many of us this sounds like two Gods. And many trinitarians now take it as equivalent to one God containing (at least) two equally divine persons. <strong>But at the time, it was<\/strong> a variant on the old speculation that Jesus was divine <em>because<\/em> he exists <em>because of God<\/em>, making him also addressable as &#8220;God&#8221; or &#8220;a god.&#8221; This was at the time an old theme with a new twist; the &#8220;same substance&#8221; and &#8220;true God&#8221; phrases seemed to imply a <em>higher degree of <strong>qualitative similarity<\/strong><\/em> between the two than was traditional to assert. It was not understood, at the time, to assert, imply, or hint that they somehow &#8220;were&#8221; or were parts of or were contained in the one God.<\/p>\n<p>And the council <strong>roundly damned Christians<\/strong> holding to <a title=\"trinitarian or unitarian? series\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=+trinitarian+or+unitarian%3F&amp;searchsubmit=\" target=\"_blank\">theories<\/a> which had been current since the mid 100s, to the effect that the Son (that is, the pre-existent Logos) was somehow emanated out of God a long time ago. Infidels! Scum! They must instead confess that the Son was &#8220;<em>eternally<\/em> begotten.&#8221; <strong>In perspective, this is a lot like<\/strong> Calvinists one one stripe\u00a0 disfellowshiping Calvinists of a different stripe &#8211; which is to say, it is apallingly contentious and mean. Of course, people put stock in rhetoric to the effect that <em>everything<\/em> hinged on this new lingo. The other guys were robbing, assaulting, or insulting, etc. Christ.<\/p>\n<p>I assume that in the <strong>longer presentation<\/strong> they advertise at the end (4:45f), they assure you that there&#8217;s no decent analogy or model for &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; at all, so that you just must believe <a title=\"post on negative mysterianism\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/1246\" target=\"_blank\">formulas you really don&#8217;t know the meaning of<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>On the one hand, it&#8217;s not clear that one <em>can<\/em> do that. But <em>if<\/em> one can, does it sound like a <a title=\"Stalin story on implicit faith\" href=\"http:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/archives\/377\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>good idea?<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n<p><strong><a title=\"Katsaras sermon on God and Jesus\" href=\"http:\/\/christianmonotheism.com\/php\/media_center\/media_displayer.php?mode=display_one&amp;data=452\" target=\"_blank\">Here&#8217;s a more accurate source<\/a>: Australian pastor Steve Katsaras<\/strong> goes through the plain, unvarnished biblical teaching about Jesus and God, and then in the second half accurately summarizes how the trinitarian creedal formulas arose from a series of catholic councils in the fourth and fifth centuries. <a title=\"link straight to the mp3 file\" href=\"http:\/\/www.christianmonotheism.com\/media\/audio\/Steve%20Katsaras%20--%20Doctrine%20of%20God%20and%20Christ.mp3\" target=\"_blank\">Put it<\/a> on your mp3 player and learn.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to really <strong>dig into the history<\/strong>, the next steps would be <a title=\"When Jesus Became God\" href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity\/dp\/0156013150\" target=\"_blank\">this,<\/a> then <a title=\"Hanson's history\" href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Search-Christian-Doctrine-God-Controversy\/dp\/080103146X\" target=\"_blank\">this<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Again, Christian apologetics is important, and I wish Credo all the best. I would not draw any general conclusions about their work based on these errors. Still, it is important when doing apologetics to be accurate to the historical facts. In defense of Credo, evangelical theologians and apologists have dropped the ball on all of this, so they&#8217;re just passing on common errors. But the facts are publicly available, and pretty clear, however theologically inconvenient they may be.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I&#8217;ve blogged about these folks before. I do not enjoy criticizing apologists, because I think Christian apologetics is important. And the folks at Credo House Ministries seem like good-hearted and hard working Christians who are doing their best to help Christians love God with their minds. And I think Patton is an excellent blogger and&hellip;&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/credo-house-ministries-misinfomation-about-the-trinity-and-the-council-of-nicea\/\" rel=\"bookmark\">Read More &raquo;<span class=\"screen-reader-text\">Credo House Ministries&#8217; Inaccuracies about the Trinity and the Council of Nicea<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":4402,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,15,6,4,33,8,20,9,13,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4400","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-christology","category-complaints","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-incarnation","category-linkage","category-mystery","category-philosophy","category-theologians","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4400","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4400"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4400\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":37271,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/4400\/revisions\/37271"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/4402"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4400"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=4400"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=4400"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}