{"id":44162,"date":"2023-02-21T21:39:15","date_gmt":"2023-02-22T03:39:15","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44162"},"modified":"2023-02-21T21:39:20","modified_gmt":"2023-02-22T03:39:20","slug":"podcast-361-a-lutheran-pastor-explains-socinianism-and-biblical-unitarianism","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-361-a-lutheran-pastor-explains-socinianism-and-biblical-unitarianism\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 361 &#8211; A Lutheran pastor explains Socinianism and biblical unitarianism"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_2283\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44162-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities361.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities361.mp3\">http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities361.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities361.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44162-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"http:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities361.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities361.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/pastor-sullivan.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44163\" width=\"476\" height=\"295\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/pastor-sullivan.png 996w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/pastor-sullivan-450x279.png 450w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/pastor-sullivan-768x477.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 476px) 100vw, 476px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode I interact with a video by Lutheran Pastor Joshua Sullivan at <a aria-label=\"Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Kerrville, Texas (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"http:\/\/www.holycrosskerrville.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Kerrville, Texas<\/a>. A listener asked him for <strong>his views on &#8220;Socinianism&#8221; and this so-called &#8220;biblical unitarianism,&#8221;<\/strong> and why they contradict the Bible. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">He replies with some descriptions and definitions, and then gives some arguments as to <strong>why these sorts of views are unbiblical.<\/strong> <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I interact with his video, agreeing, disagreeing, and adding a lot of information &#8211; historical, theological, and sociological.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Topics include:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>&#8220;Socinians&#8221; and Socinus<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>&#8220;Arians&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>&#8220;biblical unitarians&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>&#8220;unitarian Christians&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Whether unitarian Christianity can be defined by a &#8220;rationalistic&#8221; methodological stance.<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Whether unitarian Christians think Jesus is in any sense &#8220;divine.&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Traditional catholic views on generation and procession, and why most unitarian Christians don&#8217;t accept these &#8211; like some present-day trinitarians!<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>unitarian views on atonement and salvation<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>unitarian views on &#8220;the holy spirit&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Characterizations of unitarian Christians as &#8220;deniers&#8221; of various things.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>How anti-Calvinistic today&#8217;s unitarians are<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>18th-19th British and American unitarian Christianity<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Traditional catholic appeals to &#8220;mystery&#8221; in the face of theological problems.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>So-called &#8220;classical theism&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Various traditional catholic claims which are neither self-evident nor taught in Scripture, but which are widely assumed in trinitarian circles.<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>How to prove an impossibility claim, e.g. it would be impossible for a non-divine Jesus to &#8220;fully&#8221; reveal God.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Whether worshiping a non-divine Jesus is <strong>the sin of idolatry<\/strong>.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>2 (literal) definitions of &#8220;idolatry&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Whether Scripture teaches that it is wrong to worship anyone unless they are fully divine.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The implications of Jesus&#8217; exaltation to God&#8217;s right hand.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Whether Jesus claims essential equality with the Father.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Pastor Sullivan argues that <strong>if unitarian Christian views were true then<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>the Father wouldn&#8217;t be a real father and the Son wouldn&#8217;t be a real son<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the Son wouldn&#8217;t be the brightness of God&#8217;s glory or a true image of God<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>God would have changed, so would not be essentially immutable<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>the Son wouldn&#8217;t be able to &#8220;fully&#8221; reveal God<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Jesus couldn&#8217;t truly say that if you&#8217;ve seen him you&#8217;ve seen the Father<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Jesus would basically be like other prophets, and not in a class of his own<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Jesus would have been unable to do any miracles.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Jesus could not truly be called our &#8220;savior.&#8221;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>It would be wrong for us to worship Jesus<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I explain why, for various reasons, these are not powerful objections to the views of unitarian Christians.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=EVQU1KqTyJ4\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Pastor Sullivan's video (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Pastor Sullivan&#8217;s video<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.lulu.com\/shop\/translated-by-thomas-rees\/the-racovian-catechism\/paperback\/product-1wvdm6r.html?q=The+Racovian+Catechism&amp;page=1&amp;pageSize=4\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Racovian Catechism (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><em>The Racovian Catechism<\/em><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/mBzA-4vtToo\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"An Interview With Dr. Dale Tuggy - by J. Dan Gill (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">An Interview With Dr. Dale Tuggy &#8211; by J. Dan Gill<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biblicalunitarian.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Biblicalunitarian.com (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Biblicalunitarian.com<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-357-seminary-student-takes-trinity-class-becomes-unitarian-part-2\/\">podcast 357 \u2013 Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-356-seminary-student-takes-trinity-class-becomes-unitarian-part-1\/\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 356 \u2013 Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-189-the-unfinished-business-of-the-reformation\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 189 \u2013 The unfinished business of the Reformation<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-tuggy-brown-debate-dales-opening-statement\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale\u2019s opening statement (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale\u2019s opening statement<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-358-baptist-justice-samuel-eddy-on-scripture-church-discipline-and-the-trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 358 \u2013 Baptist Justice: Samuel Eddy on Scripture, Church Discipline, and the Trinity (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 358 \u2013 Baptist Justice: Samuel Eddy on Scripture, Church Discipline, and the Trinity<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/s6wK-lRZP-k\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Clarifying Catholic Christologies - by Dr. Dale Tuggy (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Clarifying Catholic Christologies &#8211; by Dr. Dale Tuggy<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-235-the-case-against-preexistence\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 235 \u2013 The Case Against Preexistence<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/c35_uFjEbx8\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Debate - &quot;Is Jesus Human and not Divine?&quot; - Dr. Dale Tuggy vs. Chris Date (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Debate &#8211; &#8220;Is Jesus Human and not Divine?&#8221; &#8211; Dr. Dale Tuggy vs. Chris Date<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-145-tis-mystery-immortal-dies\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies! (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 145 \u2013 \u2018Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"The aloneness argument against classical theism (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.cambridge.org\/core\/journals\/religious-studies\/article\/abs\/aloneness-argument-against-classical-theism\/95B23D5B5648C5798632351FCB2C5438\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">The aloneness argument against classical theism<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-227-who-should-christians-worship\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>podcast 227 \u2013 Who Should Christians Worship?<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-167-lamsons-history-of-the-unitarian-congregationalists\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 167 \u2013 Lamson\u2019s History of The Unitarian Congregationalists (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 167 \u2013 Lamson\u2019s History of The Unitarian Congregationalists<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/biblicalunitarianpodcast.podbean.com\/e\/204-an-introduction-to-the-theme-of-misunderstanding-in-the-gospel-of-john\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Biblical Unitarian Podcast 204: An Introduction to the Theme of Misunderstanding in the Gospel of John (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Biblical Unitarian Podcast 204: An Introduction to the Theme of Misunderstanding in the Gospel of John<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a aria-label=\"Biblical Unitarian Podcast 211: Jesus\u2019 Misunderstood Father (John 8) (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/biblicalunitarianpodcast.podbean.com\/e\/211-jesus-misunderstood-father-john-8\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Biblical Unitarian Podcast 211: Jesus\u2019 Misunderstood Father (John 8)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/nb4TogqyTrw\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"What John 1 meant (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">What John 1 meant<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-70-the-one-god-and-his-son-according-to-john\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 70 \u2013 The one God and his Son according to John<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-52-john-lockes-the-reasonableness-of-christianity-part-1\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 52 \u2013 John Locke\u2019s The Reasonableness of Christianity, Part 1 (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 52 \u2013 John Locke\u2019s The Reasonableness of Christianity, Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-286-is-the-trinity-essential-three-views\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"podcast 286 \u2013 Is the Trinity Essential? \u2013 Three Views (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">podcast 286 \u2013 Is the Trinity Essential? \u2013 Three Views<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=according+to+Luke\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"What is essential to the gospel, according to Luke? (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>What is essential to the gospel, according to Luke?<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">John 17:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Ephesians4:4-6: John 10: John 20:17; John 5:23; Phil 2:10-11; Act 2:22; John 14:10; John 3:34; Malachi 3:6; Revelation 5; Exodus 20:4-6; Matthew 4:10; John 8:40; John 5:15-47.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/files\/grapes\/16626\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"I dunno (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">I dunno<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/dig.ccmixter.org\/people\/grapes\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"grapes. (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">grapes.<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Is it the foundational commitment of biblical unitarians that Scripture must be inoffensive to human reason?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44163,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,62,15,75,100,4,55,99,82,20,9,57,77,94,13,95,43,53],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44162","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-calvinism","category-christology","category-divine-attributes","category-dynamic-monarchian","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-holy-spirit","category-listener-questions","category-miracles","category-mystery","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-socinian","category-theologians","category-uca","category-unitarianism","category-worship"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44162","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44162"}],"version-history":[{"count":8,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44162\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44171,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44162\/revisions\/44171"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44163"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44162"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44162"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44162"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}