{"id":44355,"date":"2023-07-08T11:08:39","date_gmt":"2023-07-08T16:08:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44355"},"modified":"2023-07-08T11:08:46","modified_gmt":"2023-07-08T16:08:46","slug":"welcome-to-dividing-line-james-white-fans","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/welcome-to-dividing-line-james-white-fans\/","title":{"rendered":"Welcome to Dividing Line \/ James White fans"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You won&#8217;t know much about me if mostly you&#8217;ve heard <strong>the James White version of me<\/strong>: I &#8220;start with Philosophy,&#8221; am my own ultimate authority, don&#8217;t believe the Bible, impose Philosophy on Scripture, am a sneaking and dishonest &#8220;Sophist,&#8221; blah blah blah. These are just moldly old stereotypes about non-trinitarians and Philosophers that he&#8217;s inherited from his Reformed and apologetics traditions. Frankly, he <strong>doesn&#8217;t understand<\/strong> my motivations, and he often just uncharitably imagines things about me. Perhaps he <em>will <\/em>understand in the future; you can too, <em>if<\/em> you want to; hence this post, which will point you to some central bits of <a aria-label=\"my work (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/philpapers.org\/s\/Dale%20Tuggy\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">my work<\/a> (see also <a aria-label=\"here (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcasts\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">here<\/a>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I&#8217;ve never been a member of any cult. My background, as explained in <a aria-label=\"this series of posts (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?s=evolution+views\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">this series of posts<\/a> or the short interview below, is mainstream, trinitarian evangelical. I was an apologetics fan-boy in the late 80s and 90s. <a aria-label=\"This (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/coggc.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">This<\/a> is my current denomination; we&#8217;re <a aria-label=\"Restorationists (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/restitutio.org\/2017\/05\/15\/restorationist-manifesto\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Restorationists<\/a>, more throughgoing Protestants, like some in the Radical Reformation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Trinity to One - An Evangelical&#039;s Journey  -  With Dale Tuggy and J. Dan Gill\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/iQ0IcCSWkO8?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In short, <strong>clashing Trinity theories led me to search for which was correct<\/strong>. This eventually drove me back to re-examine the New Testament, and I was shocked to discover that it doesn&#8217;t actually teach any Trinity theory or even &#8220;the deity of Christ.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. White thinks that at least if you know Greek, &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; is easily seen to be <em>logically implied by <\/em>Scripture<\/strong>. I disagree and explain why the over-simplified, Warfieldian, deductive arguments that apologists make don&#8217;t even come close to working. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"trinities 260 - How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/iWUwUhinBic?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">No sort of <em>deductive <\/em>argument is going to work; as I explain towards the end, we need to argue in the style of inference to the best explanation. That is what I&#8217;m trying to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">White doesn&#8217;t seem to acknowledge that<strong> &#8220;the doctrine of the Trinity&#8221; is really a set of required sentences which can be interpreted variously, with <a aria-label=\"a herd of clashing interpretations (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">a herd of clashing interpretations<\/a><\/strong> about what those sentences mean. I explain the ambiguities in an accessible way in my short book <em><a aria-label=\"What is the Trinity? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/What-Trinity-Thinking-Father-Spirit\/dp\/154677260X\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">What is the Trinity?<\/a><\/em>  I don&#8217;t argue for my own theology there; rather, it&#8217;s a book to help my trinitarian friends to grapple with the history and complexity of clashing Trinity theories. And I have to chuckle when some keyboard warrior, or even Dr. White, informs me that I ignore the Being\/Person distinction; that book has a chapter on rival interpretations of &#8220;Being&#8221; and another chapter on rival interpretations of &#8220;Person.&#8221; And many such versions of that distinction are discussed <a aria-label=\"here (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/plato.stanford.edu\/entries\/trinity\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you want to know <strong>why I&#8217;m unimpressed with Dr. White&#8217;s claims that by calling Jesus &#8220;God&#8221; or &#8220;Lord&#8221; the biblical authors are saying that he is Yahweh himself<\/strong>, please see my episodes on the terms &#8220;God&#8221; and &#8220;Lord&#8221; etc. in the Bible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 - God and \u201cGod\u201d in the Bible\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/LvNyOJBDlwU?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 - Old &quot;Lord&quot; vs. New &quot;Lord&quot;\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/4voyLpw0egI?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 3 - post-biblical uses of biblical words, and new words\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/io6nrQuglxM?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And of course there is also the fact that all the New Testament authors <a aria-label=\"assume Jesus and his and our God to differ (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-124-a-challenge-to-jesus-is-god-apologists\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">assume Jesus and his and our God to differ<\/a> (as <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/james-white-responds-to-the-challenge-sort-of\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Dr. White seems to agree (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Dr. White seems to agree<\/a>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Like some other recent scholars<strong>, White sometimes offers a basic New Testament interpretive error as if it were a special insigh<\/strong>t: an Old Testament passage says something about Yahweh, and then a New Testament author says that this passage is fulfilled in Jesus. See <a aria-label=\"here (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-bible-teaches-that-david-is-god\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">here<\/a>, <a aria-label=\"here (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/the-bible-on-another-previous-life-of-jesus\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">here<\/a>, and <a aria-label=\"here (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/proving-that-bush-sgt-speedo\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">here<\/a> for why that is an obvious interpretive mistake, what I call <strong>&#8220;the fulfillment fallacy.&#8221;<\/strong> In brief, New Testament authors reasonably assume that since God is the ultimate author of Scripture, passages can have multiple meanings and multiple fulfillments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>What White doesn&#8217;t, thus far, seem to understand, is how historical context and some indisputable facts about the New Testament texts strongly support my claim that the authors are unitarians<\/strong> (who think the one God just is the Father) rather than trinitarians (who think the one God just is the Trinity). For that, see this presentation below (there are a few typos in the slides, I think in a few verse references), or the <a aria-label=\"published version (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/44018047\/The_Unfinished_Business_of_the_Reformation\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">published version<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The Unfinished Business of the Reformation - trinities 189\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/koogceUAG50?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here is a similar approach regarding &#8220;the deity of Christ&#8221; (another catholic tradition of speculations which features <a href=\"https:\/\/iep.utm.edu\/incarnat\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"a herd of clashing interpretations (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">a herd of clashing interpretations<\/a>). <\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Jesus Asked, &quot;Who Do You Say I Am?&quot; - by Dr. Dale Tuggy\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/ipicKW1Dp30?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you&#8217;re patient enough to follow either argument, you&#8217;ll realize that <strong>the form of argument indisputably does <em>not <\/em>&#8220;assume unitarianism.&#8221;<\/strong>  That&#8217;s why I think this style of argument is helpful. It&#8217;s too easy to lob the lazy charge that the other side is merely assuming their position and misreading Scripture through that lens. White frequently indulges in that accusation; but so long as he does that, you know that he doesn&#8217;t understand either of the two presentations above. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Another frequent White tactic is entering an argument about &#8220;the Trinity&#8221; and then immediately retreating to &#8220;the deity of Christ,&#8221;<\/strong> as if these were pretty much the same thing. I&#8217;ve got a chapter in <em><a aria-label=\"What is the Trinity? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/What-Trinity-Thinking-Father-Spirit\/dp\/154677260X\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">What is the Trinity?<\/a><\/em> which explains why that is a mistake. In fact, two-natures speculations about Jesus are there in the mid- maybe even early 2nd century, while triune-God theologies are first seen in the last half of the 300s! So there are two <em>very <\/em>different historical stories there, and the catholic speculations about Christ being in some sense divine and human much precede triune-God speculations. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">About history, <strong>you will never learn from White about the early evolution of catholic thinking<\/strong> about God and Jesus. He&#8217;s not able to read 2nd and 3rd century writers in their own contexts, but instead he merrily projects his own confusions onto them and concludes that they&#8217;re a bunch of trinitarians who affirm the full deity of Christ. Here&#8217;s a lecture that is based on a college class I used to teach on the <strong>history of Incarnation speculations<\/strong>. It&#8217;ll tell you a lot of facts that White will not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Clarifying Catholic Christologies - by Dr. Dale Tuggy\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/s6wK-lRZP-k?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You can also listen to this <strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/evolution-of-the-trinity-with-bill-schlegel\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"broad sketch of early catholic doctrinal development (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">broad sketch of early catholic doctrinal development<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you want to know <strong>why the New Testament doesn&#8217;t teach the full deity of Christ<\/strong>, here&#8217;s a summary of some of my reasons below, and you can also see <a aria-label=\"my recent paper critiquing William Lane Craig's unique two-natures theory (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/ojs.uclouvain.be\/index.php\/theologica\/article\/view\/68363\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">my more thorough recent paper critiquing William Lane Craig&#8217;s unique two-natures theory<\/a>, which discusses many problems common to all such theories.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"nv-iframe-embed\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The biblical Jesus is not fully divine\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/GJCZervdJEk?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">See also my co-authored book <em><a aria-label=\"Is Jesus Human and Not Divine? (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Jesus-Divine-Essential-Christian-Debates\/dp\/1946971804\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Is Jesus Human and Not Divine?<\/a><\/em> for a lot more on both Scripture and early &#8220;fathers.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you want to know more, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.flowcode.com\/page\/daletuggy\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"one place to look is here (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">one place to look is here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thanks for stopping by and God bless!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A guide to some central bits of my work.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44360,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[37,21,16,15,6,75,14,33,56,110,47,9,77,94,3,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44355","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-apologetics","category-bible","category-books","category-christology","category-complaints","category-divine-attributes","category-history","category-incarnation","category-interview","category-james-white","category-papers","category-philosophy","category-protestant","category-socinian","category-theories","category-unitarianism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44355","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44355"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44355\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44364,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44355\/revisions\/44364"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44360"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44355"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44355"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44355"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}