{"id":44427,"date":"2023-09-26T16:28:25","date_gmt":"2023-09-26T21:28:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?p=44427"},"modified":"2023-09-26T16:28:30","modified_gmt":"2023-09-26T21:28:30","slug":"podcast-370-dr-steven-nemess-formal-challenge-to-trinity-theories","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-370-dr-steven-nemess-formal-challenge-to-trinity-theories\/","title":{"rendered":"podcast 370 &#8211; Dr. Steven Nemes&#8217;s formal challenge to Trinity theories"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_561\"><audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-44427-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities370.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities370.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities370.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities370.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/?powerpress_pinw=44427-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/trinities\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/podcast\/trinities370.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"trinities370.mp3\">Download<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7FuUF9DZM3zhtN41n6RJ6l\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_spotify\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Spotify\" rel=\"nofollow\">Spotify<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p><div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Nemes-trinity-and-incarnation-357715869.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-44429\" style=\"width:312px;height:498px\" width=\"312\" height=\"498\" srcset=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Nemes-trinity-and-incarnation-357715869.png 376w, https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/Nemes-trinity-and-incarnation-357715869-282x450.png 282w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 312px) 100vw, 312px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>The thing about objecting to Trinity theories is that they are many and different<\/strong>, and generally speaking mutually inconsistent, so that an objection which applies to one Trinity theory will not apply to others.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But in chapter 3 of his new book <em>Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology<\/em>, <strong>Dr. Steven Nemes gives a destructive tetralemma argument which applies to Trinity theories generally. <\/strong>This argument appeals only to the idea of ontological priority, then asking questions about the one <em>ousia <\/em>(substance, essence, nature) and the three <em>hypostases <\/em>(&#8220;Persons&#8221;): is (1) the <em>ousia <\/em>prior to the hypostases, or (2) are the <em>hypostases <\/em>prior to the <em>ousia<\/em>, or (3) are these all distinct but none is &#8220;before&#8221; or &#8220;after&#8221; any other, or (4) are the <em>ousia <\/em>and the <em>hypostases <\/em>not distinct (and so none is &#8220;before&#8221; or &#8220;after&#8221; any other)?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">These are arguably all the options. But whichever way the trinitarian turns, it looks like his choice results in inconsistency with something else he&#8217;s committed to, such as divine simplicity or divine &#8220;processions.&#8221; <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Nemes in effect is issuing a challenge<\/strong> to catholic theologians: how can you pick one of those four options and yet not contradict other theses to which you&#8217;re committed?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the end of the episode, we discuss <strong>another argument, which is a 2-case dilemma<\/strong>. Does the divine nature imply or include tripersonality, or not? Either way, there would seem to serious problems for the trinitarian!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Links for this episode:<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/stevennemes.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Dr. Nemes's homepage (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\"><strong>Dr. Nemes&#8217;s homepage<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Trinity-Incarnation-Steven-Nemes\/dp\/1666773565\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology<\/a><\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Orthodoxy-Heresy-Elements-Problems-God\/dp\/1009268171\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Orthodoxy and Heresy (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Orthodoxy and Heresy<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Theological-Authority-Church-Reconsidering-Traditionalism-ebook\/dp\/B0C266B1YF\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Theological Authority in the Church: Reconsidering Traditionalism and Hierarchy (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Theological Authority in the Church: Reconsidering Traditionalism and Hierarchy<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Theology-Manifest-Christianity-without-Metaphysics-ebook\/dp\/B0C1TNHLTY\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Theology of the Manifest: Christianity without Metaphysics (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Theology of the Manifest: Christianity without Metaphysics<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em><a href=\"https:\/\/stevennemes.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Eating Christ\u2019s Flesh: A Case for Memorialism (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Eating Christ\u2019s Flesh: A Case for Memorialism<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-355-dr-steven-nemes-on-trinity-theories-part-2\/\">podcast 355 \u2013 Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories \u2013 Part 2<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/podcast-354-dr-steven-nemes-on-trinity-theories-part-1\/\">podcast 354 \u2013 Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories \u2013 Part 1<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Brower and Rea, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/philarchive.org\/go.pl?id=BROMCA-3&amp;proxyId=&amp;u=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Farchive%2FBROMCA-3.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\" (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Material Constitution and the Trinity<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/4479697\/Constitution_Trinitarianism_An_Appraisal_Philosophy_and_Theology_25_1_129_62_2013\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Constitution Trinitarianism: An Appraisal (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Constitution Trinitarianism: An Appraisal<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.academia.edu\/23870189\/_Divine_deception_identity_and_Social_Trinitarianism_Religious_Studies_40_269_87_2004\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Divine deception, identity, and Social Trinitarianism (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Divine deception, identity, and Social Trinitarianism<\/a>&#8220;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tuggy, <strong>&#8220;<a aria-label=\"Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection (opens in a new tab)\" href=\"https:\/\/jat-ojs-baylor.tdl.org\/jat\/index.php\/jat\/article\/view\/449\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection<\/a>&#8220;<\/strong> (on arguments that if there is one divine Person then there must be exactly three)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This week&#8217;s thinking music is &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/koi-discovery\/post-morphose\/phenixmp3\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"PHENIX (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">PHENIX<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"https:\/\/freemusicarchive.org\/music\/koi-discovery\/\" target=\"_blank\" aria-label=\"Koi-Discovery (opens in a new tab)\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" class=\"ek-link\">Koi-Discovery<\/a>. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Exploring a new argument against any sort of catholic Trinity theory.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":44433,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[75,4,56,5,38,9,57,77,13,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44427","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-divine-attributes","category-heresy-orthodoxy","category-interview","category-modalism","category-monotheism","category-philosophy","category-podcast","category-protestant","category-theologians","category-theories"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44427","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=44427"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44427\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44436,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/44427\/revisions\/44436"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/44433"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=44427"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=44427"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/trinities.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=44427"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}